Brainstorming Potential Underworld Campaign

[Aldarc]

I'm a bit stumped. Currently beset by decision paralysis about some ideas about an upcoming campaign of which I am in the initial planning stages. The main influencers of our group like the basic elevator pitch. But now I am stuck on the details, including some fairly large ones like which TTRPG system to use. Hopefully I can get a chance soonish to talk it over with the players, but I would still like to brainstorm and kick around ideas here first.

Backstory:
What spawned the idea for the campaign was essentially something akin to a deconstruction of the dungeon crawl genre. In a dungeon crawl, you generally take your heroes down into the depths of a dangerous monster and trap-filled dungeon for gold, loot, magical items, etc. and possibly face the BBEG at the end. You may go back to home base for more supplies or to plan further incursions. In a lot of early gaming, supposedly characters were rarely named until later in their career because you don't want to become attached to a character so vulnerable to death. But what if you reversed some of the assumptions or gave reason to them?

Campaign Premise:
The general premise of the campaign is that the characters are attempting to escape the Underworld so that they may live. The characters are dead. They begin deceased in the Underworld, possibly confronted with the Deity of the Dead. How long have they been deceased? Who knows? Who cares? Is this a game that the Deity of the Dead is playing with them? Are they toying with the PCs? Does this serve some greater purpose? :shrug: Not really the point.

In some respects, the Underworld is more mythological in nature: e.g., Hades, Sheol, Kur/Ersetu. It's partially inspired by the Katabasis motif of mythology: heroes descending into the Underworld and then leaving it. But obviously more in reverse. So it's probably more similar to the Underdark than the Shadowfell or some abstract plane of existence in that it has a quasi-physical presence in the material world itself. The Underworld is exceedingly dark so light is incredibly important. Monsters, hellish horrors, and various other undead apart from the PCs will be encountered throughout the campaign. (Possibly including NPCs who can potentially shed light on who they were.)

If characters die, I'm debating whether they just disappear entirely in a permanent death or if they start back at the beginning but as a starting character. (Hades: "Welcome back. So good to see you again.") Then they could decide whether that character gives up and accepts their fate among the dead - leaving them free to roll a new character - or if they want that same character to go through the whole process again.

But built into this campaign premise, I have been musing over what character advancement would mean if characters are deceased inhabitants of the Underworld. And this is partially where the details get murky. I like the idea that the characters are initially nameless, though they may adapt monikers, but as they advance they may discover their true names, which may confer advantages. (An intentional use of old school character-naming practices.) I'm thinking that experience points reflect them regaining life energy or memories of who they once were. They may encounter scattered pieces, fragments, and clues about their old life throughout the labyrinthine Underworld.

System Requirements and Feedback:
Not D&D. Please do not propose D&D 5e. It is not the answer for everything. And more importantly, my players and I are mostly burned out from D&D 5e. (And I don't really see them touching most earlier editions.)

I am currently mulling my system choices between Dungeon World (or John Harper's stripped down World of Dungeons), Savage Worlds, Cypher System, ICRPG, and Black Hack. I am open for suggestions and/or other feedback and ideas you may have.

 

[DQDesign]

Hi Aldarc,

I would suggest checking this

https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=10246

I think has some good ideas, useful for your campaign.

Other things which comes to my mind are https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wraith:_The_Oblivion as support for ideas, and https://www.modiphius.net/products/kult-divinity-lost-4th-edition-of-kult for the game system, which is PbtA.

If you want to stick a lot with fantasy, also Into the Odd could help (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/145536) and Dungeon Crawl Classics rpg, which has an initial phase very similar to your 'nameless starting PCs' concept.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My perspective:

1) if PCs “die”, they’re returned to their starting point in the Underworld, no changes. The party has the option of going back to get them or soldiering on without. Players should therefore have a stable of replacement PCs (think DarkSun’s “character trees”) to press into play- probably others who have escaped to this point but no further, the newly arrived, otherplaar beings, etc.


2) one problem with this kind of campaign is deciding how the deceased are kitted out. In many visions of the afterlife, all you have from your former life is YOU. No gear, just your physical body. Others, you have what you died with or were buried with, or possibly supernatural echoes of them. Whichever way you go has ramifications on how different PC concepts would play out, at least in the early stages.

When I ran an analogous scenario in a 3.5Ed D&D campaign, the PCs were all captured and stripped naked before being released on an island to be the prey in a royal hunt. I had to provide a way for the characters to recover their gear or find reasonable substitutes that still made sense within the context of the campaign.


3) given that the PCs exist in a timeless state, they may have been in the Underworld for vastly different times from each other. That means PCs from various eras of the campaign world of the living. As a practical matter, that suggests to me using a system that can handle a broad variety of types. To me, that usually means a toolbox system, like HERO, GURPS, Mutants & Masterminds, and the like. Of the ones you listed, Savage Worlds and Cypher System are probably the best options.

 

[Aldarc]

Those are some good starting points, [MENTION=6781549]DQDesign[/MENTION]. Thank you.

My perspective:

1) if PCs “die”, they’re returned to their starting point in the Underworld, no changes. The party has the option of going back to get them or soldiering on without. Players should therefore have a stable of replacement PCs (think DarkSun’s “character trees”) to press into play- probably others who have escaped to this point but no further, the newly arrived, otherplaar beings, etc.

Good idea. The possibility of characters going through the grinding mill is something that I have discussed with some of the players as part of my initial pitch. But I like your idea of having them somewhat pre-made. Would these alt-characters level-up alongside the characters? Would you suggest your prior character level/tier/advancement minus one or something?

2) one problem with this kind of campaign is deciding how the deceased are kitted out. In many visions of the afterlife, all you have from your former life is YOU. No gear, just your physical body. Others, you have what you died with or were buried with, or possibly supernatural echoes of them. Whichever way you go has ramifications on how different PC concepts would play out, at least in the early stages.

When I ran an analogous scenario in a 3.5Ed D&D campaign, the PCs were all captured and stripped naked before being released on an island to be the prey in a royal hunt. I had to provide a way for the characters to recover their gear or find reasonable substitutes that still made sense within the context of the campaign.

Yeah, I am mulling this issue over as well since this naturally involves how the game begins: what do you start with? Does the Necrolord provide some initial equipment? Maybe, if it is part of their game. Do the PCs arrive pre-equipped with their gear? Possibly, as you say, if they are buried with it, which would provide their first glimpses into their identity. ("Why am I wearing armor and carrying a sword?") Or maybe the beginning is about them exploring the Underworld. Learning the ropes of exploration.

I ran a one-shot sci-fi game with Index Card RPG, with a similar problem. The PCs woke up from stasis in a space satellite prison due to malfunctions incurred from a cosmic radiation that had mutated the rest of the prison guards and some prisoners into insecttoid monstrosities. Naturally, they had no weapons. The PCs had to slowly acquire makeshift weapons, then upgrade when they defeated guards, and so on until they could reach the flight hangar and make their escape. Each room was a different puzzle of sorts. It was a bit rail-roady but it was primarily meant for introducing the system. If we had continued, it would have become more sandbox-oriented.

3) given that the PCs exist in a timeless state, they may have been in the Underworld for vastly different times from each other. That means PCs from various eras of the campaign world of the living. As a practical matter, that suggests to me using a system that can handle a broad variety of types. To me, that usually means a toolbox system, like HERO, GURPS, Mutants & Masterminds, and the like. Of the ones you listed, Savage Worlds and Cypher System are probably the best options.

True. But I will probably keep with a more ancient aesthetic, a fairly large range between Bronze Age and Late Iron Age. So it's not as if I expect swords alongside laser cannons.

 

[DQDesign]

[MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]

you are welcome.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

1) usually, campaigns using such a setup use an artificial progression system. In thenoriginal DarkSun’s character trees, the PCs in waiting were a level down.

2) on a certain level, equipping the PCs is nonsense, especially if those in charge behave as if the section of the afterlife they control is more like a prison. This is ESPECIALLY true of spellcasters who require books and components. But gimped PCs makes for more difficult storytelling and demands MUCH more thought and roleplay from the players...and real consideration as to how you’re going to dole out gear. So unless you want to play a game that’s VERY You vs Them, there should probably be some amount of gear available to them.

3) still, the arms and armor quality difference between Bronze and Iron Age is almost as vast as between pre and post gunpowder. I mean, exposed flesh is still exposed flesh, but Bronze Age fighting gear is no match for iron and steel. Beyond that, there will be changes in technology, theology, society, tactics, urbanization... It’s the difference between Babylon, Minoa or Phonecia and Athens, Carthage or Rome.

All those tings can have a big impact on PC design.

 

[Aldarc]

2) on a certain level, equipping the PCs is nonsense, especially if those in charge behave as if the section of the afterlife they control is more like a prison. This is ESPECIALLY true of spellcasters who require books and components. But gimped PCs makes for more difficult storytelling and demands MUCH more thought and roleplay from the players...and real consideration as to how you’re going to dole out gear. So unless you want to play a game that’s VERY You vs Them, there should probably be some amount of gear available to them.

Good advice.

3) still, the arms and armor quality difference between Bronze and Iron Age is almost as vast as between pre and post gunpowder. I mean, exposed flesh is still exposed flesh, but Bronze Age fighting gear is no match for iron and steel. Beyond that, there will be changes in technology, theology, society, tactics, urbanization... It’s the difference between Babylon, Minoa or Phonecia and Athens, Carthage or Rome.

All those tings can have a big impact on PC design.

Of course, but it's not like an Underworld setting has to play by the rules of human technological advancement. Maybe there is no iron or bronze. Maybe it's like RuneQuest where there is a "metal" made out of the bones of dead gods? Or maybe the materials are entirely ectoplasmic constructs? Maybe bronze works better at repelling underworldly denizons than steel does?

 

[Eltab]

The 4e Underdark supplement - and the discussion of Torog (a half-crazed god of jailors & torturers imprisoned in the place) - might give you some ideas for scenes and thematic material.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Even without an actual Bronze -> Iron Age progression, you’re still going to have significant changes over vast arcs of time. What we think of the Ancient Egyptian Empire, lasting @1500 years is actually a sequence of 4 (as I recall) distinguishable eras lasting between 100-550 years. The differences between the beginning and the end of the Empire is not insignificant. Ditto the history of the Roman Empire.

This would hold true- albeit less starkly- even with lifespans of Dwarves or Elves as part of the equation. An Egyptian Empire measured in elven longevity still covers @3-5 generations (not lifespans).

 

[Aldarc]

Even without an actual Bronze -> Iron Age progression, you’re still going to have significant changes over vast arcs of time. What we think of the Ancient Egyptian Empire, lasting @1500 years is actually a sequence of 4 (as I recall) distinguishable eras lasting between 100-550 years. The differences between the beginning and the end of the Empire is not insignificant. Ditto the history of the Roman Empire.

This would hold true- albeit less starkly- even with lifespans of Dwarves or Elves as part of the equation. An Egyptian Empire measured in elven longevity still covers @3-5 generations (not lifespans).

I'm aware, as part of my professional education entails basically memorizing all the different empires that over 1500 years that controlled the Levant. (1) This setting is not earth. (2) This is primarily for purposes of establishing a pre-Medieval/Christian fantasy aesthetic for the afterlife. (3) The purpose of this game is not worldbuilding a realistic (or reasonable) sense of historical timescale; it's for dungeon-crawling in a fictional Underworld. I don't think that my players will care at all. They will be there for monsters, puzzles, and challenges.