Can a conuration coup-de-grace?

[scottchiefbaker]

I had a flaming sphere deployed that was "attacking" a helpless (sleeping) enemy. Can a conjuration perform a coup-de-grace?

Also related, we had an enemy Astral Sealed and the above mentioned flaming sphere hit that enemy. Does anyone get the hitpoints?

 

[Alex319]

I don't have my books with me, but IIRC, if a conjuration would make the attack, it's considered as if the conjuration's controller is the attacker. So that means:

1: Yes, as long as the controller of the conjuration is also adjacent to the target.

2: The controller of the conjuration would get the healing. Note that this only happens if it was actually with the flaming sphere's attack, and not its start-of-turn autodamage. The autodamage is not an attack, and so does not trigger Astral Seal at all.

 

[Mort_Q]

Helpless Target: You can deliver a coup de grace against a helpless enemy adjacent to you. Use any attack power you could normally use against the enemy, including a basic attack.
Hit: You score a critical hit.

Annoyingly, the description says you need to be adjacent, even though it also says you can use any attack. So by RAW, a flaming sphere can't Coup de Grace unless you're adjacent to the target. Not sure if the intent is that you can only close or weapon attacks, or if that's an oversight. Also sleeping targets get a perception check (-5) to wake, and will wake when they take damage.

 

[Kingreaper]

Annoyingly, the description says you need to be adjacent, even though it also says you can use any attack. So by RAW, a flaming sphere can't Coup de Grace unless you're adjacent to the target. Not sure if the intent is that you can only close or weapon attacks, or if that's an oversight. Also sleeping targets get a perception check (-5) to wake, and will wake when they take damage.

It seems to me that the intent is to allow you to go "I put my crossbow to his head, and shoot him" without allowing you to go "I use my crossbow to coup-de-grace him from 60 feet away"

If you're miles away, and your flaming sphere hits them, you're gonna have a hard time directing it right into their weakest spots (for a coup)
If you're right next to them, you can.

Make sense?

 

[Felon]

Yeah, I don't see severing a thrat or piercing a heart with a flaming sphere. You're just rolling it over a prone target.

 

[Mort_Q]

Make sense?

The crossbow analogy makes sense, sure, and I have no problem with that.

The Flaming Sphere is a big ball of fire however. I can't even imagine 'directing it right into their weakest spot' when standing adjacent to the target, but perhaps I imagine the power differently than you do.

The Coup de Grace granted maximum damage would come, in my mind, not from hitting the weak spots specifically, but rather from the target not being able to protect their exposed flesh (weak spots) by shielding say, the face with your leather clad arm, or whatever.

It's not that I can't imagine how it would look if I thought the rule made sense in this case. It's just that I don't believe the rule was made with conjurations in mind (those rules don't seem to have been finalized when the PH dropped). Summonables, as creatures, can Coup de Grace, no?

The question that occurs to me now is; is it unbalanced to allow the conjuration to be able to Coup de Grace if they, and not the PC, are adjacent? A conjuration that can attack determines line of effect from the conjuration itself.... hmm...

Is it worthy of errata? Likely not...

Honestly, it's never come up in my game.... spell casting is noisy... but I'd Flaming Sphere Coup de Grace if the target didn't make it's perception check.

 

[DracoSuave]

The question that occurs to me now is; is it unbalanced to allow the conjuration to be able to Coup de Grace if they, and not the PC, are adjacent? A conjuration that can attack determines line of effect from the conjuration itself.... hmm....

Because the conjuration does not coup de grace, the player does. You're expecting a lot of fine control and ability on a ball of flame that the player directs solar-flare like bursts out of. The control of said flares is the player not the big dumb ball of flame.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Why do you need to be next to him? So you can hold his head in the big ball of fire of course.

 

[DracoSuave]

why do you need to be next to him? So you can hold his head in the big ball of fire of course.

yesssss

 

[Runestar]

The target is helpless against a giant ball of flame rolling all over him. That has to account for something...