Champions Symbol - M/C Avenger

[Istar]

Okay I dont know whether this symbol is written correctly or not.
As it has no specific trigger for the critical effect which is to make the enemy attack someone of your choosing - say maybe the Wizard has been annoying you.

I am thinking of my Rogue using it, by M/C avenger and being able to use a symbol.

As thier is no specific comment like all the rest of the Symbols like "when you hit an enemy using this holy symbol" then the crit effect applies to all your attacks, when you get a crit.

I see no other way to read this.

 

[Aulirophile]

Okay I dont know whether this symbol is written correctly or not.
As it has no specific trigger for the critical effect which is to make the enemy attack someone of your choosing - say maybe the Wizard has been annoying you.

I am thinking of my Rogue using it, by M/C avenger and being able to use a symbol.

As thier is no specific comment like all the rest of the Symbols like "when you hit an enemy using this holy symbol" then the crit effect applies to all your attacks, when you get a crit.

I see no other way to read this.

One of YOUR enemies, not one the targets. And critical effects only occur when the weapon or implement is actually used to make the attack, check the PHB. It doesn't need that specific wording because that is a general rule with no specific overrride in this instance.

 

[Istar]

Except say "Victory Symbol".

So why bother with all the text in the other descriptions, and this is the only one that doesnt have it, the only one ?

 

[Aulirophile]

Except say "Victory Symbol".

So why bother with all the text in the other descriptions, and this is the only one that doesnt have it, the only one ?

A daily power =! a critical property. For a critical property to apply, the weapon/implement must crit. The only way for a weapon or implement to crit is to attack with it.

Your argument is "This thing, which is unrelated to this other thing, is this way, so this unrelated thing must also be this way." If that makes sense to you.... grats?

Hell I'm bored. PHB: 225, under "Critical" for describing a magic item.

For magic weapons and implements, this entry
describes what happens when you score a critical hit
using that item.

 

[Istar]

A daily power =! a critical property. For a critical property to apply, the weapon/implement must crit. The only way for a weapon or implement to crit is to attack with it.

Your argument is "This thing, which is unrelated to this other thing, is this way, so this unrelated thing must also be this way." If that makes sense to you.... grats?

Hell I'm bored. PHB: 225, under "Critical" for describing a magic item.

For magic weapons and implements, this entry
describes what happens when you score a critical hit
using that item.

I find your reasoning and explanation both scatterbrained and inconsistent, the relations to the unrelated etc etc.,

Sorry you havent convinced me.

Can someone with a little more experience explain this to me in a more logical and coherent manner, cheers

Admin here. It's a shame you disagree with him, because Aulirophile is correct about the rules in this case, but that's really besides the point. You have absolutely no call to insult someone who answers your rules question. I don't give a damn whether you agree with their answer or not; reply politely or don't post. PM me if this is in the least bit unclear. ~ Piratecat

 

[Aulirophile]

I find your reasoning and explanation both scatterbrained and inconsistent, the relations to the unrelated etc etc.,

Sorry you havent convinced me.

Can someone with a little more experience explain this to me in a more logical and coherent manner, cheers

/shrug. I'm an RGPA DM, certified as a rules expert by WotC to run events. Who are you again? Oh, right, some guy who by his own admission just started playing 4e.

Isn't my fault you can't understand basic English.. or rules text, apparently.

Annnd... if someone is rude, please report the post instead of responding in kind. You can do this with the little triangular "!" at the bottom left of every post. ~ PCat

 

[Mirtek]

As it has no specific trigger for the critical effect

No magical item has a specific trigger for it's critical effect.

As thier is no specific comment like all the rest of the Symbols like "when you hit an enemy using this holy symbol"

No holy symbol has such a specific comment in it's crit section.

then the crit effect applies to all your attacks, when you get a crit.

A crit effect always applies to attacks made with the weapon/implement it belongs to and nowhere else.

I see no other way to read this.

You are reading it wrong and are obviously confusion item power, which do have a specific trigger comment, with item crit properties which never have a specific trigger comment and never need a specific trigger comment. Only item powers have them.

Also see PHB 1 page 225 for further clarification

/shrug. I'm an RGPA DM, certified as a rules expert by WotC to run events. Who are you again? Oh, right, some guy who by his own admission just started playing 4e.

Which everybody who just has 20 minutes to spare and an internet connection can become, even being allowed to use all D&D books available to him to unhurriedly consult them for the answers of the "test" he has to take to become RPGA certified.

You know, adding a smiley after saying something rude doesn't actually make it okay. Don't do this, please. ~ PCat

 

[Piratecat]

Istar, I think you're misinterpreting the rule text.

So everyone's clear, the symbol text is:

Champion’s Symbol

Inscribed with stylized flames, this holy symbol grants you control over the will of your foes.

Level: 25
Price: 625,000 gp
Implement (Holy Symbol)
Enhancement: +5 attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: The target makes a melee basic attack as a free action against an enemy of your choice. If no enemy is within range for the target to attack, the target is dazed until the end of your next turn.

Power (Daily * Charm): Free Action. Trigger: You hit an enemy with a fire or radiant power and deal damage to it using this holy symbol. Effect: That enemy is dominated until the end of your next turn and takes a –5 penalty to Bluff checks until the end of the encounter.

The text for the mentioned symbol of Victory is:

Symbol of Victory

Your god helps those who help themselves.

Level: 9
Price: 4,200 gp
Implement (Holy Symbol)
Enhancement: +2 attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +2d8 damage
Power (Daily): Free Action. You can use this power when you or an ally within 5 squares of you scores a critical hit. That character gains an action point.

First published in Player's Handbook.

This seems really clear to me. You don't get to use an item's critical properties unless you're using it in an attack. Post #4 above quotes that rule. If you don't use the holy symbol in an attack, and you crit in that attack, the property of the holy symbol doesn't apply.

As a result, you wouldn't get this benefit while using any power that doesn't have an implement keyword, assuming the power comes from a class that uses the holy symbol implement. You're out of luck for using this for rogue powers. Think of it this way; say you were playing a wizard and critted while using a wand. Would you instead gain the special crit property from the sheathed dagger you also own?

 

[KarinsDad]

The thing the OP is missing is that he is comparing the Critical section of Champion's Symbol with the Daily power section of Symbol of Victory.


If one compares the Critical section of Champion's Symbol with the Critical section of Symbol of Victory, it becomes:

"The target makes a melee basic attack as a free action against an enemy of your choice. If no enemy is within range for the target to attack, the target is dazed until the end of your next turn."

vs.

"+2d8 damage".

In the first case, the target has to be the target of the holy symbol. That target attacks someone else. In the second case, the target has to be the target of the holy symbol. That target takes extra damage. The critical section of weapons and implements only apply to using that weapon or implement with the attack.


If one compares the Daily power section of Champion's Symbol with the Daily power section of Symbol of Victory, it becomes:

"Free Action. Trigger: You hit an enemy with a fire or radiant power and deal damage to it using this holy symbol. Effect: That enemy is dominated until the end of your next turn and takes a –5 penalty to Bluff checks until the end of the encounter"

vs.

"Free Action. You can use this power when you or an ally within 5 squares of you scores a critical hit. That character gains an action point."


The first sentence boils down to "You hit using this holy symbol". The second sentence boils down to "an ally scores a critical hit". The Daily powers explicitly state these conditionals.


Daily item powers are not item criticals, so comparing the two of them isn't quite valid.


As a side note, it might be worth it to have 3 or 4 Symbols of Victory and swap them out if the PC is a multiclass Holy Symbol user who doesn't actually have powers in that multiclass. Switching Daily item uses for ally Action Points could be advantageous for certain PC builds for some groups.