Character Narratives Preview from PRIMEVAL THULE

Here's another preview of the Primeval Thule campaign setting for D&D 5th Edition coming from Sasquatch Games. I already showed you the table of contents and the beastman warrior. This time it's one of the nineteen character narratives from the setting. "In 5e, narratives can be taken as an alternative to backgrounds. Narratives provide a small list of benefits thematically linked to the story and flavor of the specific narrative. At first level these features include skill training and usually a signature ability that provides a small combat benefit. As the character increases in level, additional benefits become available, reflecting a rise in stature or notoriety. At higher levels a narrative might grant an income, a title, or even followers!" (thanks to Fabrício for the scoop!)

For the original announcement, click here.

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[Psikerlord#]

At least "per hour" is easier to reconcile with short rests. Better than "encounter" at least.

 

[pemerton]

Mixing game terms between editions is a mistake.

Comparing default rest times, 5 mins vs 1 hour, in practice they are very much not the same thing. But you know that already.

My point is that the devs don't misunderstand anything. They are using a technical term - 1x/enc - which is already defined as meaning "recovering after a short rest".

You mightn't like the term, but there's no misunderstanding.

a designer saying 'once per encounter is functionally the same thing as per short or long rest' has me extremely worried about the powers I will not see before the KS ends.

Any 5e designer has to make a call on how powerful they think a 1x/short rest power should be, based on the designers' conception of how frequent short rests will be in the game.

This is nothing to do with terminology - it is an issue as soon as you have asymmetric resource suites, as 5e does.

 

[Imaro]

My point is that the devs don't misunderstand anything. They are using a technical term - 1x/enc - which is already defined as meaning "recovering after a short rest".

Where in 5e is this defined? If it's not, there certainly is a misunderstanding... either you're assuming your entire player base has experience with 4e and will assume that the definition provided in 4e should also apply to 5e (which is a misunderstanding of who your player base is, as not all will have been exposed to 4e)... even though 1x/encounter powers aren't defined and don't exist in 5e (You're misunderstanding the 5e terminology in this case)... or you're creating a new type of ability that recharges after every encounter... which we know isn't the case since it's been clarified in the thread...

You mightn't like the term, but there's no misunderstanding.

It's not about liking or not liking the term... it's about the fact that it doesn't exist in 5e as actual terminology that is defined in the context of the game as you're claiming it is...

Any 5e designer has to make a call on how powerful they think a 1x/short rest power should be, based on the designers' conception of how frequent short rests will be in the game.

This is nothing to do with terminology - it is an issue as soon as you have asymmetric resource suites, as 5e does.

It has everything to do with terminology and using incorrect terminology... if the power is 1x per encounter (not short rest) which most people not exposed to 4e who play 5e will think (as well as many who don't have this thread to clarify) the power will recharge every encounter (since that's what it says) irregardless of a rest. Which does in fact make it more powerful...

 

[Rich Baker]

Two things: First, we have a preview available showing our Deluxe Thule pack (GM screen, poster map of Quodeth, and reference cards), if anyone is curious. You can see it at http://www.sasquatchgamestudio.com/thule-gm-screen-and-reference-cards/ .

Second: One of the reasons why 5e's short rest is an hour compared to 4e's 5-minute short rest is simply the aesthetics of the "adventurer's workday." It bugged the heck out of us (meaning, WotC when I was on staff there) in the 3e era that most PC parties blew through their resources and stormed four or five rooms in about ten minutes of elapsed time. So we had an idea that giving people a decent suite of powers that recharged every encounter might help them to adventure heroically for more of the day before camping. But in practice, 4e parties did the same thing, and maybe had a 20-minute adventuring day. So one of the reasons the short rest in 5e is an hour is simply to encourage PCs to spend all day exploring a dungeon, making the experience match up better with the books and films people think about when they think about fantasy adventure. I was part of the 5e design team for many months, so I participated in those discussions. Now, 5e does a much better job than previous editions of making players decide to use or conserve those "short rest" powers, just because any DM worth his salt can decide whether the PCs can sit on their duffs for an hour in safety or not. But it is something that plays differently at different tables.

Hypothetically speaking: What would you guys think about saying "3/day" instead of "1/encounter" or "1/hour?" That's close to the same frequency and fairly agnostic about encounter pacing. I imagine we might want some boilerplate like, "3/day but not more than 1/minute" or "3/day, but not more than once against any given foe because he's onto your tricks after you do it once."

 

[Imaro]

Two things: First, we have a preview available showing our Deluxe Thule pack (GM screen, poster map of Quodeth, and reference cards), if anyone is curious. You can see it at http://www.sasquatchgamestudio.com/thule-gm-screen-and-reference-cards/ .

Second: One of the reasons why 5e's short rest is an hour compared to 4e's 5-minute short rest is simply the aesthetics of the "adventurer's workday." It bugged the heck out of us (meaning, WotC when I was on staff there) in the 3e era that most PC parties blew through their resources and stormed four or five rooms in about ten minutes of elapsed time. So we had an idea that giving people a decent suite of powers that recharged every encounter might help them to adventure heroically for more of the day before camping. But in practice, 4e parties did the same thing, and maybe had a 20-minute adventuring day. So one of the reasons the short rest in 5e is an hour is simply to encourage PCs to spend all day exploring a dungeon, making the experience match up better with the books and films people think about when they think about fantasy adventure. I was part of the 5e design team for many months, so I participated in those discussions. Now, 5e does a much better job than previous editions of making players decide to use or conserve those "short rest" powers, just because any DM worth his salt can decide whether the PCs can sit on their duffs for an hour in safety or not. But it is something that plays differently at different tables.

Hypothetically speaking: What would you guys think about saying "3/day" instead of "1/encounter" or "1/hour?" That's close to the same frequency and fairly agnostic about encounter pacing. I imagine we might want some boilerplate like, "3/day but not more than 1/minute" or "3/day, but not more than once against any given foe because he's onto your tricks after you do it once."

I just don't get why it's so hard to keep it as close as possible to the actual 5e rules? You seem to be trying to couch it in 4e terminology for some reason (that I honestly don't understand) when it seems like the easiest thing to do is keep it as close to 5e terminology as possible.

How about just saying... "once used this power recharges after resting an hour or longer"... bam!! there you go.

"3/day but not more than 1/minute" or "3/day, but not more than once against any given foe because he's onto your tricks after you do it once"... are convoluted and still aren't the same as recharging on a short rest in 5e... In the first one I'm now forced to track this power on 2 different timeframes.... minutes and days as opposed to one, hourly. For the second suggestion... does this mean I can use my power against a different foe in the same combat that I haven't used it on before? If so we have the chance for spamming the ability in the same fight, depending on number of enemies being faced and I know have to track how many uses per day and what foes it has or hasn't been used on. Honestly I think the best thing to do with this is keep it as simple and as close to 5e as possible.

 

[Rich Baker]

[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] -- It's entirely possible I am overthinking this, which is something I do from time to time. We'll stick with something closer to the 5e language.


Rich Baker
Sasquatch Game Studio

 

[Imaro]

@Imaro -- It's entirely possible I am overthinking this, which is something I do from time to time. We'll stick with something closer to the 5e language.


Rich Baker
Sasquatch Game Studio

Thanks... and I don't want you to think I'm negative towards your project... I was tempted to get this originally for 13th Age but was hoping there'd be a 5e version released since while I have and will run/play 13th Age on occasion my players have been loving 5e since release and it's our go to fantasy game. The fact that you did come here, and were open to discussion and feed back pushed me from waiting until this was released to the public and reviews had appeared to make my decision into actually backing the kickstarter. So you definitely gained me as a backer from this thread.

 

[ilsundal]

We'll stick with something closer to the 5e language.

Hurrah!

 

[nerfherder]

[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] -- It's entirely possible I am overthinking this, which is something I do from time to time. We'll stick with something closer to the 5e language.

lol! I read this thread on my phone, then logged onto my PC to reply, and I was going to write "I think you may be overthinking this..."

Can I make a suggestion for how to word short rest abilities?
"You cannot use Cutthroat Strike again until after you have rested for at least 60 minutes."

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

Two things: First, we have a preview available showing our Deluxe Thule pack (GM screen, poster map of Quodeth, and reference cards), if anyone is curious. You can see it at http://www.sasquatchgamestudio.com/thule-gm-screen-and-reference-cards/ .

Well, I just bumped up my pledge from $20 to $45. I'm really looking forward to this one.

 

[ShadoWWW]

[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] -- We'll stick with something closer to the 5e language.

Rich Baker
Sasquatch Game Studio

Great! Many thanks. Now, I am really excited not just about the fluff but also about the crunch!

 

[IgnatiusJ.Reilly]

Saying an ability "cannot be used again until one completes a rest" is used a few times in the Player's Handbook, but avoids the 'short rest' and 'long rest' terminology. I'll admit, I'm just a bit wary of increasing PC power more than another 'short rest' ability. My PCs are annihilating everything as is, but maybe that's my fault, as they are not power-gamers. Further, if they use one of the Player Handbook's backgrounds, I'll need to add an ability and balance it for that background as well.

The Player's side of the DM screen looks awesome, I love looking at the city from the shady overhangs of a primeval forest. However, being able to to see a city from the perspective of one of its citizens, using the reference cards, is probably the my favorite part of the pack. It's much more interesting than simply reading an entry describing the city and its environs.

 

[Agamon]

[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] -- It's entirely possible I am overthinking this, which is something I do from time to time. We'll stick with something closer to the 5e language.

That's cool.

That said, your "3/day" idea cleaves with 5e rules well enough. There are a number of abilities that can be used a certain number of times per long rest, so that would work.

 

[Imaro]

That's cool.

That said, your "3/day" idea cleaves with 5e rules well enough. There are a number of abilities that can be used a certain number of times per long rest, so that would work.

I think the question is... whether the intent behind this ability is that it is supposed to be recharged on a short rest... or it's supposed to be some other kind of ability. What I took away from earlier in the thread was that the intent was for it to recharge on a short rest... if so 3/day is not the same thing. But this also highlights the confusion that could arise if the terminology used is vastly different from what 5e uses...

 

[pemerton]

It's not about liking or not liking the term... it's about the fact that it doesn't exist in 5e as actual terminology that is defined in the context of the game as you're claiming it is...

I haven't claimed anything about it being defined in 5e. But it is defined.

Where in 5e is this defined?

To the best of my knowledgde, it's not. It's defined in the 4e PHB.

It has everything to do with terminology

No. If a designer of a 5e character ability assumes that short rests will occur between every encounter, they will make assumptions about how powerful that ability needs to be. Those assumptions have nothing to do with terminology - they are assumptions about pacing and recovery rates within the context of asymmetric power suites.

Increasing the ration of short rests to encounters makes fighters and warlocks relatively more powerful. In the context of a Conan-esque Primeval Thule, that seems to me to be a feature rather than a bug.

 

[Imaro]

I haven't claimed anything about it being defined in 5e. But it is defined.

To the best of my knowledgde, it's not. It's defined in the 4e PHB.

Are you being serious right now? How does it being defined in 4e have any bearing on this discussion about a 5e supplement. Bennies are defined in Savage Worlds... guess the developers could stick those in with no explanation and it'd be ok because it's defined somewhere... there's already a 4e Thule that uses 4e terminology and 4e rules... I am paying for a 5e book and it should follow 5e rules, terminology, assumptions etc. as closely as possible, except where the designers are purposefully changing something. It's hard for me to even take this assertion seriously...

No. If a designer of a 5e character ability assumes that short rests will occur between every encounter, they will make assumptions about how powerful that ability needs to be. Those assumptions have nothing to do with terminology - they are assumptions about pacing and recovery rates within the context of asymmetric power suites.

If they understood and used the correct terminology (per short rest vs. 3x/per encounter) they wouldn't be making that assumption since the assumption itself is in the terminology. They would instead assume this power is used after every short or long rest, realize per the rules/assumptions of 5e that a short rest happens every 2-3 encounters and build accordingly, thus bringing the abilities power in line with others that recharge on a short rest... as opposed to assuming a short rest happens every encounter in every group and then justifying their assumption about everyone's game...by changing the actual rules and using non-existent (in 5e) terminology.

Increasing the ration of short rests to encounters makes fighters and warlocks relatively more powerful. In the context of a Conan-esque Primeval Thule, that seems to me to be a feature rather than a bug.

And if that was the intent of the designers... your argument would make some sense and there would be no expectation of it being assumed to recharge on a short rest... of course we know that's not the case since the intent was already stated near the beginning of the thread...

 

[mach1.9pants]

I just don't get why it's so hard to keep it as close as possible to the actual 5e rules? You seem to be trying to couch it in 4e terminology for some reason (that I honestly don't understand) when it seems like the easiest thing to do is keep it as close to 5e terminology as possible.

How about just saying... "once used this power recharges after resting an hour or longer"... bam!! there you go.

Can I make a suggestion for how to word short rest abilities?
"You cannot use Cutthroat Strike again until after you have rested for at least 60 minutes."

Sounds a lot better to me, and as long as thought process is put in to the fact in 5E 'once per rest' /= 'once per encounter' it will be a massive crunch improvement.

 

[Rich Baker]

Increasing the ration of short rests to encounters makes fighters and warlocks relatively more powerful. In the context of a Conan-esque Primeval Thule, that seems to me to be a feature rather than a bug.

I will openly admit that I am not that smart. Never occurred to me to tinker with the encounter/short-rest mechanics as a way to adjust power balance in favor of fighters. We were just looking at what we thought might be a simpler and better expression of the rule (and this discussion has shown me why that might not be a good idea).


Rich Baker
Sasquatch Game Studio

 

[MagicSN]

Hypothetically speaking: What would you guys think about saying "3/day" instead of "1/encounter" or "1/hour?" That's close to the same frequency and fairly agnostic about encounter pacing. I imagine we might want some boilerplate like, "3/day but not more than 1/minute" or "3/day, but not more than once against any given foe because he's onto your tricks after you do it once."

I do not think this (3/day) is a good idea. Some groups (like my group) play with a "very low number of encounters per day". Some days even have only 1 or 2 (but hard ones ^^). 3/day in comparision to "one per short rest" would be a HUGE change in the balance for us.

Of course I still can "whatever is written there, let's treat it as if it WOULD say Short Rest" ;-)

BTW, as you are reading this thread @rich some questions:

- Is it possible to go "for now" only for the Digital Pledge and later buy the book (will there be only as many books as pledgers, or will later RPG-Material-Shops sell the books as well) ?
- If the books will be sold at other places: Do you have any cooperating companies in Germany (so I could buy the book there and avoid HUGE shipping costs) ? Amazon.de, maybe?
- Asides from the Sourcebook any new Adventures or other material planned?
- I saw you support Fantasy Grounds now. Any plans to support the program Realm Works from the Hero Lab guys (I have created a "custom" 5e ruleset for Hero Lab some times ago - sadly cannot release it due to no OGL available, but of course Realms Works support would be cool anyways (Thule data files for Hero Lab should be easy to do, pretty sure I could do that quite fast, the big question is if ever WotC allows data files for such a program for 5e to be released...).

Thanks!

MagicSN

 

[Rich Baker]

[MENTION=6784745]MagicSN[/MENTION] -- We will have a small number of books available for sale into distribution/retail channels. They'll be a few weeks behind the Kickstarter copies, of course. We can't promise that any particular distributor will choose to carry 5e Thule, but I can tell you that Esdevium carries our Pathfinder and 13th Age versions. I think it's likely they will carry some 5e books when they're available. That would certainly help you with shipping costs--check with your local gaming store and see if they can order from Esdevium or not.

By the time we finish the Kickstarter, we'll have 5-6 adventures available through DriveThruRPG -- two that are currently available, one that Dave Noonan's working on now, plus 2-3 more from Steve Winter, Rob Schwalb, and maybe Steve Townshend from the current Kickstarter. After that, additional material depends on demand. We like writing Thule, so if people want more, we'll make more!

I'm not sure about Realm Works at the moment. We're focusing on Fantasy Grounds first (we're a small company and there are only so many things we can do at one time).


Rich Baker
Sasquatch Game Studio

BTW, as you are reading this thread @rich some questions:

- Is it possible to go "for now" only for the Digital Pledge and later buy the book (will there be only as many books as pledgers, or will later RPG-Material-Shops sell the books as well) ?
- If the books will be sold at other places: Do you have any cooperating companies in Germany (so I could buy the book there and avoid HUGE shipping costs) ? Amazon.de, maybe?
- Asides from the Sourcebook any new Adventures or other material planned?
- I saw you support Fantasy Grounds now. Any plans to support the program Realm Works from the Hero Lab guys (I have created a "custom" 5e ruleset for Hero Lab some times ago - sadly cannot release it due to no OGL available, but of course Realms Works support would be cool anyways (Thule data files for Hero Lab should be easy to do, pretty sure I could do that quite fast, the big question is if ever WotC allows data files for such a program for 5e to be released...).

Thanks!

MagicSN