Chariots of Fire - The beach scene

hennebeck

First Post
Ok, first, I want to apologize if the title is a little too old for some of you.
Look it up.

Second, if someone is slowed, "Movement is reduced to 2 squares".
If someone runs or charges they move their "movement +2"

If a slowed Moderator ran, would it move 2 + 2?
 

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pinbot

First Post
hennebeck said:
Ok, first, I want to apologize if the title is a little too old for some of you.
Look it up.

Second, if someone is slowed, "Movement is reduced to 2 squares".
If someone runs or charges they move their "movement +2"

If a slowed Moderator ran, would it move 2 + 2?

That sounds right to me. You can't literally run (well I envision slow as a sedation/torpor effect, not a slo-mo camera) but you can still throw caution to the wind and move as fast as possible (here, that being, not very fast at all) thus granting combat advantage to your enemies.

Charge seems even more questionable, and if allowed one could question whether it should still get a bonus. But I think all sides are arguable, so the 4e approach would probably be to go simple meaning no extra consequences beyond those deliniated, so yeah charge 2+2 and get usual charge effects.
 

Envision slow as having all your muscles in a very lethargic state.

It's not that you can't move, it's that it takes a much larger amount of energy to move, so you can only pump out so much of it at once.

So basically Slow is like running after having run around for a few hours. You can do it but you're not going to sprint like you were fresh and stretched.
 

Vendark

First Post
Per the rules as written, yes, you can run when slowed. I'm not sure if you're supposed to be able to, though; the "Slowed" condition does say you can't increase your speed above 2. Running doesn't, as written, increase your speed, it just lets you move 2 more than your speed.

Whether that's an oversight, or an intentional distinction, I'm not sure.
 

TheLordWinter

First Post
Based on what's in the PrRC (which is updated from Keep on the Shadowfell, I believe) you can charge your speed as a standard action (in this case, 2). The PrRC then states: "You must move at least 2 squares from your starting position, and you must charge to the nearest unoccupied square from which you can attack the enemy."

So it seems it can work as a tiny little dash, but it could be difficult.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Since the KotS states:

Slowed
Your speed becomes 2. This speed applies to all your movement modes, but it does not apply to teleportation or to a pull, push or slide. You can't increase your speed above 2 and your speed doesn't increase if it was lower than 2. If you are slowed while moving, stop moving if you have already moved 2 or more squares


I don't think you can get any benefit from attempting 'run' while slowed. If you are slowed your move is reduced to 2 squares no matter what, and you can't do anything to increase that.

This seems the most straigtforward reading, especially since they seem to be going to some lengths to be as comprehensive as possible. I don't think that there is any point attempting to differentiate between 'speed' and 'move'. Especially considering the last sentence.

Keep it simple could be the 4e mantra, and we know the specific trumps the general.
 
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coyote6

Adventurer
Plane Sailing said:
Since the KotS states:

Slowed
Your speed becomes 2. This speed applies to all your movement modes, but it doesn't not apply to teleportation or to a pull, push or slide.


I hope that's your typo & not KotS's. ;)
 


hennebeck

First Post
But Run says "your speed +2".

So your speed is 2 (from slow) +2 (from run).
That's the rules as written.

Unless you decide the order is: compute run speed first, 6+2=8.
And then figure slow which reduces it to 2.

My ruling, for myself, would be the 2+2. That's a movement of only 4 that provokes OA.

Now, if I wanted to make a house rule, which I tend not to, I might rule run is halved to +1. For a total of 3.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
hennebeck said:
That's the rules as written.

Don't give me that rubbish.

3e rules discussions were blighted by people trotting out that lame excuse and don't want it to start blighting things here too.

If you think a point is debatable, argue the case for the way you would rule it, but don't try to trump the argument by trotting out the old argument, since it is merely your reading of the rules.

I'm serious.
 

Merlin the Tuna

First Post
Plane Sailing said:
If you think a point is debatable, argue the case for the way you would rule it, but don't try to trump the argument by trotting out the old argument, since it is merely your reading of the rules.

I'm serious.
I like this version.
Caelic said:
3. RAW is a myth.
This is one of the dirty little secrets of the board. The Most Holy RAW is invoked continuously by those who want to give their arguments the veneer of officiality. The problem is, RAW is generally applied not as "The Rules as Written," but rather as "The Rules As I Interpret Them And You Can't Prove I'm Wrong, Nyeah." The RAITAYCPIWN. Not quite as catchy an acronym, granted, but that's what it boils down to.

This game cannot be played without interpretation and the judicious application of common sense. Try to play the game strictly and exclusively by the rules as written, and you have an unplayable game.

Using "RAW" as a defense is similarly meaningless--particularly when your defense rests on interpretation. If you're going to claim that your build is RAW, you'd better be able to make sure that the rules specifically uphold your claim...not simply that they're sort of vague and COULD be interpreted in such a way as to not FORBID your claim.

This becomes particularly important when your claim is especially controversial.

Yes, builds should adhere to the rules as written. Yes, any exceptions to that should be noted. But the RAW as some sort of entity unto itself, capable of rendering a build immune to criticism, is not a useful construction, and causes more problems than it solves.
 

hennebeck said:
But Run says "your speed +2".

So your speed is 2 (from slow) +2 (from run).
That's the rules as written.
Exception Based Design.

Well, Run is essentially a standard option. Everyone can do it per default.
Slowed is the exception. It's a special condition you can suffer from. It states you can move only 2 squares.

Slowed
Your speed becomes 2. This speed applies to all your movement modes, but it does not apply to teleportation or to a pull, push or slide. You can't increase your speed above 2 and your speed doesn't increase if it was lower than 2. If you are slowed while moving, stop moving if you have already moved 2 or more squares
The bolded part is even more specific. You can't increase your speed above 2.
 

Fredrik Svanberg

First Post
I think it seems pretty clear that Slow means that you can't move more than 2 squares, no matter how fast you try to move. I would say that if you are Slowed you simply can't run.
 

Ginnel

Explorer
Ok when your slowed you can still single move just with a speed of 2

you can also double move with a speed of 2 making a total of 4 squares moved

option 3 you can move faster by running adding another 2 squares to your current movement, I see no reason why you couldn't move faster by using run but as a previous poster said maybe halve the effect it gives.

The rules as given don't make it clear as to what the effect is doing so its kinda hard to judge, is the target drowsy making them only able to stumble the 2 squares rubbing their eyes are they being targeted by a magical effect which slows time down for them?

I kinda like the drowsy description where the mind compulsion makes them lethargicly move 2 spaces but if they try and get the hell out of dodge they can force themselves another space using run.

P.S run doesn't seem to increase speed merely move you 2 more squares as written, if run said it increased your speed by +2 for the round this would be a lot less ambiguous
 
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TheLordWinter

First Post
Ginnel said:
run doesn't seem to increase speed merely move you 2 more squares as written, if run said it increased your speed by +2 for the round this would be a lot less ambiguous

Upon taking a look at the actual text, it states "Your speed becomes 2. This applies to all your movement modes...[sans teleportation]." I think that is pretty clear. Your speed should be 6, you run to boost it to an 8, and slow sets it to a 2.

Unless there are other effects introduced later which set movement speed, I'd say this one is pretty much solved.
 

Saishu_Heiki

First Post
TheLordWinter said:
Upon taking a look at the actual text, it states "Your speed becomes 2. This applies to all your movement modes...[sans teleportation]." I think that is pretty clear. Your speed should be 6, you run to boost it to an 8, and slow sets it to a 2.
Using the KISS principle (which seems to work wonderfully in 4e), I would rule that the Slowed condition effectively changes the number next to the word Speed on the character sheet.

If the character then runs, they move up to their speed (2) followed by the run movement (+2).

This keeps the rules interpretation simple. The Slowed effect is observed as well as the run action. Since the character is granting CA by running, it does not give the player an undue advantage in my estimation.
 

Andur

First Post
You can't double move when you are slowed and you can't run when slowed. Both of those change your speed for that round and slow specifically states that your speed cannot be above 2.

However, this is a dangerous tactic you have to lower your guard to make your best speed, and you can’t attack very well.

if your speed is normally 6, you can move up to 8 squares when you run.

Both of the above imply that your speed becomes the new value when you run.

One Speed: When you double move, add the speeds of the two move actions together and then move.

Once again, your speed becomes the total of the double move.

When a creature is slowed they can move a maximum of 2 squares unless they teleport or forced moved.
 
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kclark

First Post
Andur said:
You can't double move when you are slowed and you can't run when slowed. Both of those change your speed for that round and slow specifically states that your speed cannot be above 2.
I disagree. I see Speed as a keyword stating how many squares a character can move as a move action for a particular movement type. Slow just continuously resets all your listed Speeds to 2. If you use a power that increases your speed for an encounter, slow immediately resets it to 2 again.

I say that double move allows you to move a number of squares equal to your speed twice in a round. It is actually two distinct actions with each allowing you to move your speed. It does not increase your speed.
Running states that you can move a number of squares equal to your speed + 2, it does not say that it increases your speed by +2.

The important key is that Speed is not the same thing as how far you move in a round or action.

Andur said:
Both of the above imply that your speed becomes the new value when you run.

Once again, your speed becomes the total of the double move.

When a creature is slowed they can move a maximum of 2 squares unless they teleport or forced moved.
It does not say you can only move a maximum of 2 squares. What is does say is that your non-teleport Speed characteristic cannot be higher than 2. It does not actually limit how many squares you can actually move, just that most (if not all) moving type abilities or powers will be based upon your speed.
 

hennebeck

First Post
First, I, in no way meant to piss you off, Plane-Sailing. I'm sorry.
I was just pointing out that the wording of speed is speed, not movement. That is my argument for my interpretation.

[Speed becomes 2] + [run adds 2 to speed] = 4.
No where does it say that your movement is 2. Just the Keyword Speed is 2.

I also like the post that states you have to adjudicate RAW. I completely agree.
So, in my games, I say it's 2 +1 for run. For a total of 6 MAX movement a turn if you double move.

However, if errata comes around that says your movement becomes 2, I could get behind that.

Is there anything defined differently in the PHB?
 

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