Charisma... as a skill?

[A'koss]

I've had some time lately to tweak a few a few of our "lower magic" rules and during this go-around I took a hard look at various ability scores and ways to balance their importance a little better. Charisma, unfortunately, is a dump stat under the new rules (none of our primary classes require it) and I refuse to shoehorn it, as WotC has done, into areas where it has no business belonging.

So I'm toying with the idea of turning charisma, or at least it's pertinent effects, into a skill. To be honest, charisma's utility is already rolled into our skill system pretty well - Deception (disguise and bluff combined plus seduction, etc.), Gather Information (this one may get folded or dropped though), Intimidate and Artistry (Perform + artistic talents). "Diplomacy" (IOC) is better roleplayed but can be affected by some of the above skills. The fine art of diplomacy can often be reduced to knowing when to flatter (Deception) and when to frighten (Intimidate)...

In it's place I've been thinking of putting in some kind of Creativity stat. I kinda like the idea of stat that every class can make equal use of. Just what that use is... I'm still working on.

Wisdom is the other stat to be modified, but mostly in name. It becomes Willpower as the stat really has little, if anything, to do with wisdom. Intelligence now modifies skills that have to do with "awareness of one's surroundings" as well as now being able to reason potential abilities and weaknesses in enemies.

I just thought I'd tap the MB for thoughts on what a charisma skill might accomplish or are the existing skills enough already?

Cheers!

A'koss.

 

[ARandomGod]

I've had some time lately to tweak a few a few of our "lower magic" rules and during this go-around I took a hard look at various ability scores and ways to balance their importance a little better. Charisma, unfortunately, is a dump stat under the new rules (none of our primary classes require it) and I refuse to shoehorn it, as WotC has done, into areas where it has no business belonging.

So I'm toying with the idea of turning charisma, or at least it's pertinent effects, into a skill. To be honest, charisma's utility is already rolled into our skill system pretty well - Deception (disguise and bluff combined plus seduction, etc.), Gather Information (this one may get folded or dropped though), Intimidate and Artistry (Perform + artistic talents). "Diplomacy" (IOC) is better roleplayed but can be affected by some of the above skills. The fine art of diplomacy can often be reduced to knowing when to flatter (Deception) and when to frighten (Intimidate)...

In it's place I've been thinking of putting in some kind of Creativity stat. I kinda like the idea of stat that every class can make equal use of. Just what that use is... I'm still working on.

Wisdom is the other stat to be modified, but mostly in name. It becomes Willpower as the stat really has little, if anything, to do with wisdom. Intelligence now modifies skills that have to do with "awareness of one's surroundings" as well as now being able to reason potential abilities and weaknesses in enemies.

I just thought I'd tap the MB for thoughts on what a charisma skill might accomplish or are the existing skills enough already?

Cheers!

A'koss.

A house rule about charisma.
You're right, Wizards has removed the stat from the definition. On the other hand, Charisma already IS a thing. They're transforming it. I meantion this because of what you're thinking about with wisdom. Charisma is willpower. Wisdom is simply perceptions.

MY (potential) houserule to this effect (Of making every stat useful):
** Cut and pasted from another post **

Constitution: leave that as a fort save modifier.
+++ Makes plenty of sense, and that is pretty much the function of con. +HP and +toughness in every form

Wisdom: Have this modifier applied to reflex saves.
+++ It can be justified by saying that the reflex is about how quickly your character is noticing things, since wisdom is about perceptions now, it can be a factor in reaction time. Especially in save situations, when dex *should* be flat-footed and therefore unresponsive.

Charisma: Have this stat's modifier apply to willpower saves
+++ Seriously. They've changed the flavor of charisma to the point that they should just change the name. It's now a reflection of the characters ... well, character. Strength of spirit. And it makes more sense to have strength of spirit affect willpower saves than perceptions. Sure, you can *percieve* that this is a spell trying to control your mind, but you need strength of spirit, willpower, to overcome it.

Further discourse:
I think that charisma should be a more important stat, and having a save attached to it would definitely help. But then, wisdom rather needs a save attached to it also. I mean, it's still good without it, wisdom based skills are very important... but still, I didn't want to take away the save modifier.

BUT... dexiterity! If there was ever a skill that didn't need a save on it, that's the one. I can take away the save bonus without really feeling like I'd be making the stat unimportant. I still think that as many people will take it as before with this system. But now there is *different* reason to take wisdom, and more reason to take charisma. Thereby making each stat a little less dumpworthy.

Of course, Rogues really like reflex saves... but that's their strong save anyhow, and they want spot and listen almost more than anyone else. So, while encouraging rogues to have greater wisdom might not be preoper typecasting, well, I've always wanted good wisdom, and wouldn't want it any more this way.

Yes, I think that evens out the stats nicely. (Yes, I am semi stream of concious writing, thinking this through here and potentially subjecting hapless readers to my thought processes). It should give every stat something that would be wanted by any character regardless of class or even skills wanted.

Str = Carrying, + To hit (melee), + damage.
Dex = AC, to hit (ranged).
Con = Fort save and hit points.
Int = Skill points.
Wisdom = Reflex save.
Cha = Will saves.

 

[ecliptic]

Charisma is your Mental Strength, Wisdom is Mental Consitution, and Intelligence is Mental Dexterity.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by ARandomGod:
You're right, Wizards has removed the stat from the definition. On the other hand, Charisma already IS a thing. They're transforming it. I meantion this because of what you're thinking about with wisdom. Charisma is willpower. Wisdom is simply perceptions.

Charisma has really just gone astray in D&D. In my case, since there is no Cleric, no turning undead and no Paladins IMC - Charisma has almost no value as a standalone stat.

Charisma: Have this stat's modifier apply to willpower saves
+++ Seriously. They've changed the flavor of charisma to the point that they should just change the name. It's now a reflection of the characters ... well, character. Strength of spirit. And it makes more sense to have strength of spirit affect willpower saves than perceptions. Sure, you can *percieve* that this is a spell trying to control your mind, but you need strength of spirit, willpower, to overcome it.

I know the reasoning behind WotC's change for Charisma but I'm afraid I just can't stomach turning charisma into *Willpower*. It's much more palatable to say that Charisma is now a collection of skills and that way I'm not turning into something it's not...

On the topic of willpower though we're trying out a new rule called Resolve. Resolve is like mental hit points, Will Save spells inflict Resolve damage now instead of the traditional "all or nothing" effects they usually have. When you run out of Resolve, whatever effect brought it down to 0 now takes effect. Pretty cool actually... A lot things affect Resolve now - fear and horror effects, spectacular magic (used against you), energy drain (rather than XP), casting high level spells, magic item creation (instead of XP), torture, intimidation, defeats in battle (though hard won victories can replenish them). But I digress...

I agree that Dex does a lot but I'm improving other stats to compensate somewhat. Strength requirements for weapons is one. In a world where it's possible to achieve superhuman levels of strength, where are the weapons and armor that can be made for such characters? That's something I'm trying to address as well (particularly since it's a lower magic campaign...).

Also we're experimenting with Strength and Dex splitting the melee "to hit" bonuses with the option for *intelligent* characters to sub out one of those scores with his Int bonus. This is my way of promoting intelligent fighters who can analyze an opponent's strategy and find weak points, hence the bonus.

Thoughts?

 

[Al]

Rather than bewailing the perceived weakness of Charisma, rejigging saving throws or shoehorning half a dozen skills into an absurd Charisma mega-skill, the easiest fix is to change DMing style.

Think what Charisma means. It's power of presence, ability to perform in a social setting and the gift of creating an impression. For example, most ordinary NPCs in my campaign will typically always talk to the highest Charisma PC, assume that they are the leader etc. With low (7-) Charisma PCs, some of my NPCs are downright rude or dismissive. If you see a group of people, are you going to want to speak to the witty, charming and handsome one or seek out his gawky, awkward and plain companion? The extreme example is if one PC outshines the others so massively as to become synonymous with the legend. The party becomes not a group of equal talent and achievement but of a single great hero and his ragtag bunch of followers. Everyone's heard of Robin Hood, or Drizzt- it takes much more searching to name all of the merry men or the companions.

It's much more than that though. I contend that there is not a single historical or mythical low Charisma hero. Perhaps a competent shield-bearer, a loyal sergeant or a mighty warrior. But a hero? No. It's Charisma that makes the difference between the do-gooding temple grunt and the shining champion, the dull mercenary and the dazzling soldier of fortune, the common murderer and the nefarious villain.

When the high Charisma party receives plaudits from the crowds, audiences with royalty, engagements to overwhelmed princesses and bards heralding their praises throughout the land; whilst the low Charisma one gets a grimy sack of gold and a half-hearted thanks from the townsfolk before being forgotten behind the next legendary achievement of the true heroes- then, and only then, will they know the true power of Charisma.