Cinematic, Gritty Combat

[Eltern]

I'm going to be starting an Indiana Jones-esque campaign soon, and I'm trying to work out a combat system to fit the bill. The main problem is that the two factors I really want are mutually exclusive: cinematic fight scenes where people do cartwheels between stone pillars, jump down two stories to land on a moving wagon, etc. However, I also want people to be afraid of being hit. There will be flintlock guns and such, along with your normal magic, psionics, and fantasy weapontry. I looked at the Grim n Gritty rules and it seemed to inspire the right amount of fear, but did not lend itself to doing stunts. Pirates of the Carib may be the best example of how combat should work. Lots of tricks, but when he puts the pistol in your face you're scared, not saying "Oh, I got 100 HP, bring it!" Maybe something where everyone just gets less HP, but class defense bonuses. Or maybe Grim n Gritty with a souped up action point system. Suggestions?

Thanks!
Eltern

 

[Nifft]

Action Points + VP/WP

VP/WP means that you can "take 100 hp" and laugh (so long as they're all of the VP version of HP), while still falling down and being hurt when someone crits you (and you take WP damage). Action Points allow you to do all sorts of cool cinematic stuff.

Add in Defense Bonus, and you're emulating the Star Wars system, which is cinematic yet gritty.

-- N

 

[Kemrain]

For what you're looking to do, the 3.3 Grim and Gritty system with an action points variant could work well. It brings the fear back into combat, but makes you more afraid of getting hit than anything else. The VP/WP system is nice, but you still have to deal with random critical hits stopping combat, and it is much more jarring to go down when you still have 80 VP than to get dropped from 6 HP.
Grim and Gritty works well because of armor as DR. I play in a game where armor is half DR, Half AC, and it works fairly well, especially since it's comparably low magic (and low damage output.) A character with a good AC, plenty of DR, and lots of HP to fall back on is a terror in combat... Until you whittle them down wound levels. (Try having wound penalties apply to Defense, too. Worlds of hurt!)
Grim and Gritty doesn't discourage cinematic play, it just makes hits hurt more. If you show your players they can do crazy Pirates of the Carribean tricks, they'll do them. If you let them assume they can't because of the system, they surely won't.
In GnG there are 3 basic successful combat characters. Those who can't be hit, those who can't be hurt, and those who kill you first so it doesn't matter. The first and last sound right for your game. Just watch out for characters who mix all three.

- Kemrain the Unofficial Grim and Gritty Spokesbeing.

 

[Eltern]

I looked at WP/VP system, and it didn't do enough for me in terms of the mentality it creates. If I get hit with a sword, I've only got a 10% chance it's going to REALLY hurt me, and even then I can still probably get away unless he's got a high strength or somesuch. It seemed that it was normal HP system, that 5-20% of the time worked like I wanted it to I thought about just calling Vitality "fatigue points" for the visualization that people are really getting hit per se, but the rest of the system doesn't aid that idea.

Or am I completely wrong, and this is not how WP/VP actually works in play? (Only seen it on paper)

 

[SSquirrel]

I looked at WP/VP system, and it didn't do enough for me in terms of the mentality it creates. If I get hit with a sword, I've only got a 10% chance it's going to REALLY hurt me, and even then I can still probably get away unless he's got a high strength or somesuch. It seemed that it was normal HP system, that 5-20% of the time worked like I wanted it to I thought about just calling Vitality "fatigue points" for the visualization that people are really getting hit per se, but the rest of the system doesn't aid that idea.

Or am I completely wrong, and this is not how WP/VP actually works in play? (Only seen it on paper)

Well if you run out of VP you'll go on to WP which WILL hurt you.

Did you look at the old Grim n Gritty or the new Revised thread here on enworld? http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1512983#post1512983 is the current thread.

Kemrain>Heh I think I'm becoming the spokesperson for the GnG Revised rules. Heck I was the first person hosting them the day after Ken put them up on enworld last month *grin*

Hagen

 

[Eltern]

I posted over there about AoE attacks and cover I think I'll do Grim n Gritty with action points and see what happens. If it ain't working, I'll do VP/WP.

 

[Kemrain]

I posted over there about AoE attacks and cover I think I'll do Grim n Gritty with action points and see what happens. If it ain't working, I'll do VP/WP.

Score!

[hijack]
SSquirrel, you take the Revised rules, I'll keep pimping the 3.3 rules, and we'll split the profit 50/50. So, 50% of zero is what again?
[/hijack]

- Kemrain the Mathmatician.

 

[Ssyleia]

This is not my idea - it originates from the German "Midgard" role playing game in the early 80's and has been reproduced in various games and supplements, including Unearthed Arcana:

Make it like this:
Characters have life points = Constitution
Characters have hit points = according to normal D&D rules

In combat characters receive hp damage - on a critical hit they take live point damage
A number of circumstances - including a rolling 15 ft boulder - damage is directly applied to life points.
Lesser healing spells ("Cure Critical Wounds") cure 1 life point for 4.5 hit points they restore...

This will make characters much more likely to run from an overwhelming force and thus cinematic (and potentially hazardous) escapes become possible...

 

[Prothall]

VP/WP looks like the way to go to me. I wanted to institute it in my own campaign, but my players wouldn't hear of it, seeing as how their high level and (at least some of them) filthy munchkins.

Oh, Ssyleia, that system you just posted is almost exactly what everyone means by VP/WP - that is, vitality points/wound points. For anyone who doesn't know, Wizards put up a nice pdf with those rules on their website.