Come and get it and vertical pulls

[BobTheNob]

Scenario : A cavern, where I had specified the ceiling as a hight of (around) 3 squares of movement. Players are fighting a dragon, who gets airborn. Our fighter gets to a position below it and uses "come and get it" attempting to pull it down dead verticaly. I had no precedent for this, but paid it. He then used an action point and pinning smash, thus sealing the creatures doom.

I paid it and chalked the whole thing up to quality tanking. Whats other peoples take on using "come and get it" (or other positional abilities) for vertical movement? I wasnt sure if the rules covered this, but had to make a decision on the fly and so went with it, but was it right?

 

[Flipguarder]

PHB 285

"Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies
how many squares you can move a target. You
can choose to move the target fewer squares or not
to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically."

 

[Amaroq]

By RAW, no: I don't have the page handy to quote from - Edit: Oh, thank you, Flip-ninja!!, but essentially effects which Push, Pull, and Slide can only do so in the horizontal plane, not the vertical.

By RAI, I'd say sure: the fact that your dragon was flying shouldn't nerf the fighter's awesome "Come and Get It" power, where he taunts the dragon into giving up a tactical advantage to come down and fight him at sword range.

Personally, I think:

a.) The RAW 3-d rules feel "tacked on" to a 2-d wargame, and well worth an area of house-ruling, DM perogative, etc.

b.) The characters should be awesome, and even your Solo villains shouldn't be immune to their awesomeness.

So, I think you made a perfectly fine ruling; you made the ruling I'd have made as DM; you made the ruling I'd want made as the fighter ... and it just happens that it wasn't "correct" by RAW.

How to handle that? Think about it; decide how you want to run it in the future .. and then before your next session, mention it to the players, and let them know that you'll be consistently applying either
- the same ruling you just made, as a house rule, or
- the RAW interpretation

for all future combats.

 

[Keenberg]

I think the clause "You can’t move the target vertically" is more intended for moving creatures up. I.E. the character is on a ledge and some goblins are 30 ft down below... he can't goad them in to making a sudden and miraculous 30 foot jump out of nowhere. But for a flying creature diving down at the character, it makes sense to me. Like Amaroq said, you made a good call, and I'm sure it was very fun for the players.

 

[Marshall]

PHB 285

"Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies
how many squares you can move a target. You
can choose to move the target fewer squares or not
to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically."

Its also not RAW.
Would anyone argue about pulling a monster off a 10' balcony? No.

Pulls, pushes and slides CAN force a fall. There is even a whole subset of rules to govern that situation that technically can never occur if you read the above rule literally.
Keenberg has it right, the rule uses "vertically" to mean "up." Even that reading isnt correct since a PC on a ledge above a flying target should be able to pull the target up to it.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Its also not RAW.
Would anyone argue about pulling a monster off a 10' balcony? No.

Pulls, pushes and slides CAN force a fall. There is even a whole subset of rules to govern that situation that technically can never occur if you read the above rule literally.
Keenberg has it right, the rule uses "vertically" to mean "up." Even that reading isnt correct since a PC on a ledge above a flying target should be able to pull the target up to it.

There is a difference. Using movement powers to force a fall work by moving the target horizontally to where there is nothing to support them. Gravity then takes over.

 

[Mengu]

/*Stepping outside RAW realm*/

This is one of those rules that makes life challenging for the DM. I try to use common sense as much as possible. If I'm fighting on a stairway, I can't push my opponent diagonally up the stairs with Tide of Iron? Why not?

I can certainly see pulling a flying enemy whichever way it needs to go (up, down, diagonal) with a power like Come and Get It. But if I'm flying, and I'm fighting a carrion crawler, I obviously shouldn't be able to pull it up.

As much as I'm a stickler for RAW, this one is where I leave myself open for some flexibility. I feel 3d combat in general can use a bit of bending of the rules to fit common sense more than rules.

 

[Flipguarder]

For your stair scenario as well as a lot of other specific instances, think of it like this. a push or a pull means horizontal movement, but what happens after that is entierly up to a DM. One might think the person falls prone after being forced backwards on stairs, some might allow the movement to go up the stairs. I myself would be looking at each specific situation

 

[Starfox]

Scenario : A cavern, where I had specified the ceiling as a hight of (around) 3 squares of movement.

Somewhat off-topic, but with a ceiling only three squares high, a Large or larger dragon would still be within normal reach when flying. Creatures are cubes, not 2-dimensional squares.

 

[Obryn]

I allow it; I just use common sense. That "vertical movement" clause technically disallows it, but I think it's more there to prevent abuses - like pushing a creature six squares diagonally up so they fall at the end.

If a creature could use a normal mode of movement to get adjacent to the Fighter, it works.

-O