Confused about staves

[Kzach]

Ok... so a quarterstaff is an implement for a monk now. Is there some difference between a quarterstaff and a staff now? I know CB isn't a reliable source, but it's confusing me as to whether or not I can use staves with magical implement properties or quarterstaves with magical weapon properties.

It's all a bit of a mess.

For instance, can I use a Staff of Ruin for my monk and get the extra damage on his attacks?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, you can. Staves are a bit of an oddball because they were really the only items that were fully weapons and implements in the PHB and they hadn't quite worked through all the implications of that. On top of that they created two different classes of items that are both staves, Quarterstaff weapons and magical implement staves.

As the rules now stand there is really effectively no difference between the two. Any magical staff can be used interchangeably as either a weapon or an implement. If a character who CAN'T use a staff as an implement picks up an implement staff they can whack things over the head with it and get the enhancement bonus and AFAIK the properties as well. They cannot however access the powers of such an item. Similarly if a character that DOES have staff as an implement picks up a magic quarterstaff they can use it as an implement and get the enhancement bonus and the properties. They can also obviously use the powers since anyone can do that.

Note also that when used as an implement a staff is one-handed regardless of what "type" of staff it is. As a weapon it is always two-handed, again regardless of which type it is.

Monks using staves simply follow those rules. They are effectively the same rules as a swordmage will use when wielding swords as implements, etc. Of course monks also have some additional class feature stuff related to staves, but again that's specific to monks and will work with any staff, even a non-magical one.

The rules are layed in a bit of a messy fashion, but generally things work in the way you would expect them to.

 

[Kzach]

So as an implement, there's no real benefit from getting Two-weapon Fighting with Staff Fighting. Which means the Character Builder is really messed up, as it gives the TWF damage bonus on implement powers IF you wield a quarterstaff and it doesn't give the Staff of Ruin damage bonus.

Both give the defensive benefits though.

 

[DracoSuave]

Basicly, to simplify it:

Implements can be specific implement-only types: orbs, wands, rods, tomes, or totems...

..or they can be specific weapon classes or weapon types: staves, light blades, heavy blades, daggers.

(not including ki focuses or monk weapons)

Staff is a weapon type, of which quarter staff is one. However, there are staves that are enchanted under staves and not under weapons. Such staves still function as quarterstaves in every way. Their powers can only be accessed by those who have the right to use staves as implements.

 

[Starfox]

So as an implement, there's no real benefit from getting Two-weapon Fighting with Staff Fighting. Which means the Character Builder is really messed up, as it gives the TWF damage bonus on implement powers IF you wield a quarterstaff and it doesn't give the Staff of Ruin damage bonus.

Both give the defensive benefits though.

RAW as I understand it is that all these benefits work with staves as implements, but require you to wield the staff in two hands. The really interesting part is using a staff with Dual Implement Spellcaster, using the butt end of the staff as the off-hand implement. You can add up quite a bit of damage that way, along with defensive benefits.

Staff Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Staff of Defense
Bludgeon Mastery
Dual Implement Spellcaster
Staff of Defense (Wizard)

Top this off with one of the defensive staves, and you got a very powerful summoning wizard at the expense of a slew of feats.

 

[Zaran]

So as an implement, there's no real benefit from getting Two-weapon Fighting with Staff Fighting. Which means the Character Builder is really messed up, as it gives the TWF damage bonus on implement powers IF you wield a quarterstaff and it doesn't give the Staff of Ruin damage bonus.

Both give the defensive benefits though.

Actually, I don't see the builder adding the +1 to be a mistake. If the monk is using the stafff to strike opponents (even if he doesn't get the profiency bonus because it's an implement), he would still be using it with the skill of one that can use two weapons simultaneously.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

CB is notoriously poor at dealing with these kinds of setups. OTOH some of the rules involved are FAR from exactly settled either. I mean the whole Dual Implement Spellcaster plus double weapon as implement thing is a gray area so dark you'd think you were in the Shadowfell.

I think consensus is that Starfox's list of relevant feats is good and by analogy with past rulings you'd be eligible for all the bonuses they provide. Its pretty unlikely CB will do those calculations for you any time soon. With PCs like that you just have to transfer the numbers to a paper sheet and do the corrections by hand. And then hope your DM doesn't want a full explanation of how you did them! lol.

 

[DracoSuave]

RAW as I understand it is that all these benefits work with staves as implements, but require you to wield the staff in two hands. The really interesting part is using a staff with Dual Implement Spellcaster, using the butt end of the staff as the off-hand implement. You can add up quite a bit of damage that way, along with defensive benefits.

Staff Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Staff of Defense
Bludgeon Mastery
Dual Implement Spellcaster
Staff of Defense (Wizard)

Top this off with one of the defensive staves, and you got a very powerful summoning wizard at the expense of a slew of feats.

With, of course, investment in Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intellegence, and Wisdom...

...MAD much?

 

[MarkB]

On a related note, one of our players has recently started playing a Sorcerer. He wants to know if it's possible to use a Vicious Staff or Vicious Dagger as his implement, and gain its bonus to critical damage when using Implement-based powers.

 

[abyssaldeath]

On a related note, one of our players has recently started playing a Sorcerer. He wants to know if it's possible to use a Vicious Staff or Vicious Dagger as his implement, and gain its bonus to critical damage when using Implement-based powers.

Of course he would. Why wouldn't he?