Creature effect omniscience and self-harm

[LostWormOnItsWayHome]

Hello,

I'm not sure if there's a thread dedicated to this already. I couldn't find anything online addressing the issue.

There's this weird bug in 4e.

"Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creatures knows exactly what you've done to it and what conditions you've imposed." (PHB Page 57, last paragraph)

However, there are several powers which have effects resulting in any attack attempt of the affected party to be effectively cancelled and to instead harm itself or an ally. This mostly occurs in the form of allowing the power user to change the target of the creature when the creature attacks. If the creature is aware of this effect, it is then aware it has no benefit to attacking, and that attacking will harm it. The power effectively becomes "This creature will not attack." which is not as fun or powerful.

So, my questions are:

1) Am I misunderstanding the rule from the PHB?
2) Has that rule been modified, clarified, or removed in errata?
3) How do other people handle this rule in conjunction with these powers?

Thank you

 

[Tony Vargas]

"Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creatures knows exactly what you've done to it and what conditions you've imposed." (PHB Page 57, last paragraph)

Yes.

However, there are several powers which have effects resulting in any attack attempt of the affected party to be effectively cancelled and to instead harm itself or an ally. This mostly occurs in the form of allowing the power user to change the target of the creature when the creature attacks.

The powers that I can think of that change targets are either immediate (in which case you don't know about 'em until they're used, and it's too late), or allow you to swap yourself (or an ally) in as the target rather than the creature or one of it's allies...

1) Am I misunderstanding the rule from the PHB?
2) Has that rule been modified, clarified, or removed in errata?

No, but it's a general rule, and general rules can have exceptions.
They're usually pretty clearly spelled out in a 'Special' line, though.

3) How do other people handle this rule in conjunction with these powers?

An example of such a power would help, I think.

 

[LostWormOnItsWayHome]

Yeah, I thought an example would help, but I unfortunately didn't take specific note of which powers do this and couldn't find one quickly.

Let's see what I can find with a more concerted effort.

Okay, Phantom Reality [Arcane Power 114] is an example, I think:

Hit: The target is affected by phantom reality (save ends). While it is affected by phantom reality, whenever the target makes a melee or ranged attack roll, you can change the target of that attack. If it makes an area attack, you chose the attack's origin square if applicable. the target cannot attack itself in this way. Also whenever the target moves, you can slide it 4 squares after it completes its movement.

So, the creature can still attack its enemies without concern as long as it does so with powers that don't have allies in range, but it still has the problem I'm trying to address.

I also want to clarify that it's a corner-case issue. Very few powers have the problem.

I'll see if I can dig up some more examples.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, I thought an example would help, but I unfortunately didn't take specific note of which powers do this and couldn't find one quickly.

Let's see what I can find with a more concerted effort.

Okay, Phantom Reality [Arcane Power 114] is an example, I think:



So, the creature can still attack its enemies without concern as long as it does so with powers that don't have allies in range, but it still has the problem I'm trying to address.

I also want to clarify that it's a corner-case issue. Very few powers have the problem.

I'll see if I can dig up some more examples.

Looks like that one got an update:

While the target is subjected to the phantom reality, it must make a saving throw whenever it uses an attack power. If the saving throw fails, you can either force the target to attack one creature instead of another or change the location of the attack power’s area of effect, if any. Either change must be valid for the power, and you cannot force the target to attack itself. In addition, whenever the target ends a move, you can slide it up to 4 squares as a free action.

Update (8/4/2010)

 

[LostWormOnItsWayHome]

Ah, thanks. That's helpful.

I'll check for specific power updates before posting next time I notice something like this.

 

[LostWormOnItsWayHome]

Found another one today, without errata that I can see.

PHB 126
Dance of Death
Rogue level 27 encounter
Standard Action
Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. If the target makes a melee attack against you before the end of your next turn, you can have it attack another creature of your choice, including itself, instead of you.

 

[MwaO]

Right. So the monster knows the consequences of its actions and therefore likely won't do it, but rather will do another action entirely. But if it doesn't for some reason, you have a variety of specific options different from the first power.

 

[LostWormOnItsWayHome]

Just seems like the general rule prevents all sort of potential powers from working. Dance of Death might as well read "the target will not make melee attacks against you." Which is less powerful, less interesting, and less fun.

I don't believe the power was designed with the general rule in mind.

Oh well.

 

[MwaO]

Just seems like the general rule prevents all sort of potential powers from working. Dance of Death might as well read "the target will not make melee attacks against you." Which is less powerful, less interesting, and less fun.

I don't believe the power was designed with the general rule in mind.

Oh well.

That's probably true. But part of the fun of such a power is forcing the target to make choices. Say as an example, you're a Battlemind|Rogue hybrid with Lightning Rush and that attack oneself power. If the monster tries to avoid attacking you, you force it to attack you and then it attacks itself anyway...

 

[Jhaelen]

Just seems like the general rule prevents all sort of potential powers from working. Dance of Death might as well read "the target will not make melee attacks against you." Which is less powerful, less interesting, and less fun.

Don't forget that there are plenty of monsters (especially Elite and Solo) that can make several melee attacks with their attack actions. If a monster can attack several heroes it probably won't mind hitting itself with one of them.