D&D General Curbing Guidance after all these years

[Stalker0]

Guidance
Reaction to a creature other than you making an attribute check
Range: 30 feet
Components: V S

You ask your divine patron to help an ally. As a reaction, you sacrifice a hit die, and the target gains a 1d4 bonus to the triggering attribute check, possibly turning a failure into a success. The target of the effect may choose to sacrifice a hit die to refund your lost hit die.

At higher levels: Starting at level 5, the target gains temporary HP equal to one roll of the sacrificed HD. Starting at level 11, the roll of the bonus die also increases the temporary HP, and at level 17 the roll of the bonus die becomes 1d6.

Resistance
Reaction to a creature other than you failing a saving throw
Range: 30 feet
Components: V S

You ask your divine patron to protect an ally. As a reaction, you sacrifice a hit die, and the target gains a 1d4 bonus to the triggering saving throw, possibly turning a failure into a success. The target of the effect may choose to sacrifice a hit die to refund your lost hit die.

At higher levels: Starting at level 5, no HD is sacrificed if the saving throw still fails. At level 11, the bonus roll becomes 1d6, and at level 17 1d8.

...

How is that for less-spammed cantrips?

Well, for Resistance, it is going to be more used. But nobody used it in my experience.

The HD cost is intended to be modest. By making the Cleric commit their own HD, and then giving the target the option of saving the HD, the Cleric should be cautious about using it.

Both are "someone else". These Cantrips don't boost your own abilities.

For Guidance, I didn't want to break bounded accuracy. So I made it turn the lost HD into temporary HP (which keeps HP budget on-track), then granted a few extra HP and only then made the die larger at T4. If you spam it at one target these temporary HP don't stack, so it is less efficient. If you use it only sometimes, it acts as a little blessing from the divine patron.

Used modestly it shouldn't cause a HP deficit due to the temporary HP.

The Resistance doesn't get temporary HP for a few reasons. First, they are likely to be about to take damage; the temporary HP become healing. Instead I made the die grow larger. I find saving throws are more swingy than skill checks.

"You don't waste the HD if the check still fails" saves on "ok, how much did you miss by" time waste, so I put that upgrade early; it increases game throughput. For level 1-4 a bit of caution seems fine.

Resistance is triggered by failng the saving throw to make it clear that it isn't auto-wasted on a success. Attribute/skill checks often have a less obvious "pass/fail" number in my experience, so I avoided that mechanic.

I think this version of guidance is probably fine, but that resistance is likely too good. Saving throw bonuses are very rare, getting to add in a bonus right when you need it, that is more than worth a hit die. Turns resistance into an OP ability imo

 

[John R Davis]

Weirdly, to me this feels like PCs that are geared to combat and only combat, and this makes me less inclined to adopt a flexible interpretation of guidance as compared to a more well-rounded character.

Er no. You get like 5 skills proficiency out of 15 in total is it? As everyone likely has an 8 and a 10 I see no issue with a d4. In our party of four there are skill gaps, guidance just part of that balance / play.

 

[NotAYakk]

I think this version of guidance is probably fine, but that resistance is likely too good. Saving throw bonuses are very rare, getting to add in a bonus right when you need it, that is more than worth a hit die. Turns resistance into an OP ability imo

So at low levels, it is worth using when the difference is 2 or less (HD are expensive).

At higher levels HD are cheaper, especially because a cleric can turn spell slots into healing. The reaction cost ends up being significant.

OTOH, resistance was a completely useless Cantrip in my experience, barring "I have nothing else to concentrate on, so assume I have it self-buffed whenever I'm not concentrating on something else" style passive use.

 

[Bae'zel]

As for the RAW aspects being a lot to remember, I think the duration after casting is the biggest factor to remember. Most skill things are going to be more than a minute or reactive. I think this mostly cuts it down to a few specific uses. "Lord bless this jump, amen." "Lord bless this lockpickers hands, amen." "Lord bless this trapspringer's hands, amen." It seems to mostly be a help the thief spell in practice.

I think that part of the problem is in the system itself: shouldn't "reactive" ability checks be saving throws, not skills?

If the system was more clear on what should be an ability CHECK vs. an ability SAVE this spell might be a bit less overpowered.

If guidance could only be used on checks for things that aren't instant, but taking some time (eg at least a minute) I think it would work better.

Eg: Athletics and Acrobatics should never be used reactively; those should be Strength or Dex Saving throws. People may disagree, but I think that this would help a little with Guidance.

 

[Stalker0]

So at low levels, it is worth using when the difference is 2 or less (HD are expensive).

At higher levels HD are cheaper, especially because a cleric can turn spell slots into healing. The reaction cost ends up being significant.

OTOH, resistance was a completely useless Cantrip in my experience, barring "I have nothing else to concentrate on, so assume I have it self-buffed whenever I'm not concentrating on something else" style passive use.

You are right that OG resistance isn't good. But this...is too much.

Its a fine line but its relatively easy for a player to know when they have failed saves by 1-4 (you can start ballparking save DCs pretty quickly after some experience).

The consequenece of failed saves has huge impacts to a combat and to a character itself, especially ones that shut off actions. Using your reaction and a hit dice for a solid chance to undo that is just too much.


Its one of those cantrips that maybe should just not exist. Saving throw bonuses are very rare in 5.x, the idea of it being on a cantrip may just be a failed idea to begin with.

 

[SkidAce]

Eg: Athletics and Acrobatics should never be used reactively; those should be Strength or Dex Saving throws. People may disagree, but I think that this would help a little with Guidance.

Could you clarify your thoughts in regards to grappling? I.e. the Attacker uses Athletics but the defender uses STR or DEX?

* Edit, Never mind, unless you feel its worth your time, re-reading grapple makes my example moot, since its an unarmed strike.
** Edit, edit, i think it changed a bit in 2024.

 

[Bae'zel]

Could you clarify your thoughts in regards to grappling? I.e. the Attacker uses Athletics but the defender uses STR or DEX?

* Edit, Never mind, unless you feel its worth your time, re-reading grapple makes my example moot, since its an unarmed strike.
** Edit, edit, i think it changed a bit in 2024.

That’s a tricky one: I would ask the player what their character (the target of the grappling) wants to achieve. Escape the grapple? Saving throw. Reverse the grapple and grapple the grappler? Opposed skill test?