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RPG Evolution: D&D's Missing Archetypes
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8596429" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>"Need" will always be a useless standard in game design. We do not "need" anything, full stop. But, if I may, I will presume what you mean is "do hybrid character classes do something <em>useful</em> that a multiclass cannot?" Because that is actually worth answering...and is the thrust of my "60% blue, 40% yellow =/= 100% green" argument.</p><p></p><p>Multiclass characters in an <em>à la carte</em> multiclassing system are not, despite what they might seem, actually two classes blending together into a harmonious whole. They are discrete chunks layered onto one another. The <em>à la carte</em> multiclassing system is very easy to use (its strongest selling point) and, with some important caveats, relatively easy to balance compared to something like a "build your own class" system. But ultimately, it is equivalent to building your character with Lego bricks. If you want a structure to be green, you cannot achieve that via the sequence BYBYBYBYB at the chunky scale of actual Legos. Computer monitors are able to fake colors in that way only because they have <em>extremely</em> fine control--the "bricks" are sub-millimeter chunks viewed from half a meter away. To get the same kind of resolution with ordinary Legos, you must be viewing them from (roughly) <em>320 meters</em> away. Such resolution is simply not feasible in most IRL situations--and likewise not feasible in D&D 5e, where you only have 20 levels, not hundreds. [Brief aside: I know that to be <em>technically</em> correct with RGB, it would need to be Red + Green = Yellow rather than Yellow + Blue = Green, but Y+B/G is what came to mind first, perhaps because of the Ukraine war.]</p><p></p><p>As a result, 60% blue, 40% yellow (or whatever other mix you might wish to examine) is not even a simulation of 100% green. It may have all the <em>parts</em> of green, but it isn't actually green. Now, here, it is important to unpack what I'm claiming with this visual analogy, not just rely on the visual analogy alone. The problem with the Eldritch Knight is not that it doesn't <em>do</em> magic, but rather that its magic is pretty much disconnected from its combat prowess, and that limits its potential as a Swordmage archetype. There's little meaningful interaction between the two sides, with the subclass granting only and exactly the following features (other than the spells themselves):</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">you can't be disarmed unless incapacitated, and can summon your weapon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">you get a bonus action weapon attack if you cast a cantrip as an action</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">hit an enemy with a weapon, it gets temp. disadvantage against (only) your spells for a round</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">you can teleport 30' before or after you use Action Surge (so, ~3 times a day at best before level 17, ~6 times a day thereafter)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">now you get a bonus action weapon attack if you cast a regular spell as an action</li> </ul><p></p><p>That's...it. Everything else is just Wizard spells, very few of which are particularly interested in blending combat skill into magic. There's nothing like the various Aegis effects of the 4e Swordmage, and because of the way EK spellcasting works, it's not possible to add spells unique to them. The teleport is kind of neat, but is going to go wasted a lot, because the best use of Action Surge is to lay the smackdown on a single target. The EK is, necessarily and inherently, incapable of truly blending its parts together. Mostly blue (the Fighter chassis is very good at fighting pretty much no matter what) with a slice of yellow (spells that mostly don't interact with your fighting ability), and there's essentially no way to <em>make</em> them interact any further because of the nature of both the overall Fighter class and the specific Eldritch Knight features.</p><p></p><p>I could belabor the point by doing a similar analysis of Bladesinging or War Magic, but I won't. The analogy--60% blue, 40% yellow is fundamentally <em>not the same</em> as 100% green--holds. The closest you can get is the Hexblade Blade Pact Warlock, and <em>that</em> gets a bunch of people <em>really saucy</em> about its very existence, soooooo....</p><p></p><p>I get, I truly really do <em>grok</em>, why a lot of players don't like what they call "class bloat." They see it as fiddly, persnickety. An unpleasable fanbase always begging for the next KEWL NU POWERZ, flitting from wasteful excess to wasteful excess rather than actually building something awesome. But...that's legit not how I see any of these things. I see it as "this is a clear archetype, one with either some solid presence in fiction or a fun twist on typical expectations, that really lacks for full-throated, <em>serious</em> support." It's not about being fiddly or persnickety, but rather about saying, "I can <em>see</em> how these parts COULD interact, but the rules as they exist don't LET them interact." The Warlord is to the Battle Master what the Druid is to the Ranger: not "part-X, part-Y," but "all Y." The Swordmage is to the Eldritch Knight what the Druid is to the Nature Cleric: sure, you can make a passable "nature priest" with the Nature domain...but it's not going to be anywhere near as <em>satisfying</em>, and you'll sure as heck never get something as cool as Moon Druid out of a Nature Cleric. The Avenger is a relatively new idea, represented in some modern media, a spin on faith and divinity poorly-represented in current D&D, where the Paladin is to much a clonky Big Damn Hero with a preoccupation for <em>rules</em> and the Cleric is a clonky Church (literally) Militant Priest focused on <em>ministering</em>: Avenger opens a space for a surety of faith that reads between lines, and has little interest in <em>proselytizing</em> and much more interest in <em>holding clergy accountable</em>. That it also has shades of "Demon Hunter" or the classic Van Helsing inspiration of the Cleric doesn't hurt at all.</p><p></p><p>I will say, <em>if</em> it were done well, I could actually see Avenger being a Rogue subclass, a divine equivalent of the Arcane Trickster. But it would need careful handling to not suck. So I'm not totally dogmatic about all these things needing their own classes. I just think most of them are <em>worthy</em> of their own classes, because they'll do something <em>distinctive</em> that isn't particularly feasible or even <em>possible</em> with the current classes and subclasses.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8596429, member: 6790260"] "Need" will always be a useless standard in game design. We do not "need" anything, full stop. But, if I may, I will presume what you mean is "do hybrid character classes do something [I]useful[/I] that a multiclass cannot?" Because that is actually worth answering...and is the thrust of my "60% blue, 40% yellow =/= 100% green" argument. Multiclass characters in an [I]à la carte[/I] multiclassing system are not, despite what they might seem, actually two classes blending together into a harmonious whole. They are discrete chunks layered onto one another. The [I]à la carte[/I] multiclassing system is very easy to use (its strongest selling point) and, with some important caveats, relatively easy to balance compared to something like a "build your own class" system. But ultimately, it is equivalent to building your character with Lego bricks. If you want a structure to be green, you cannot achieve that via the sequence BYBYBYBYB at the chunky scale of actual Legos. Computer monitors are able to fake colors in that way only because they have [I]extremely[/I] fine control--the "bricks" are sub-millimeter chunks viewed from half a meter away. To get the same kind of resolution with ordinary Legos, you must be viewing them from (roughly) [I]320 meters[/I] away. Such resolution is simply not feasible in most IRL situations--and likewise not feasible in D&D 5e, where you only have 20 levels, not hundreds. [Brief aside: I know that to be [I]technically[/I] correct with RGB, it would need to be Red + Green = Yellow rather than Yellow + Blue = Green, but Y+B/G is what came to mind first, perhaps because of the Ukraine war.] As a result, 60% blue, 40% yellow (or whatever other mix you might wish to examine) is not even a simulation of 100% green. It may have all the [I]parts[/I] of green, but it isn't actually green. Now, here, it is important to unpack what I'm claiming with this visual analogy, not just rely on the visual analogy alone. The problem with the Eldritch Knight is not that it doesn't [I]do[/I] magic, but rather that its magic is pretty much disconnected from its combat prowess, and that limits its potential as a Swordmage archetype. There's little meaningful interaction between the two sides, with the subclass granting only and exactly the following features (other than the spells themselves): [LIST] [*]you can't be disarmed unless incapacitated, and can summon your weapon [*]you get a bonus action weapon attack if you cast a cantrip as an action [*]hit an enemy with a weapon, it gets temp. disadvantage against (only) your spells for a round [*]you can teleport 30' before or after you use Action Surge (so, ~3 times a day at best before level 17, ~6 times a day thereafter) [*]now you get a bonus action weapon attack if you cast a regular spell as an action [/LIST] That's...it. Everything else is just Wizard spells, very few of which are particularly interested in blending combat skill into magic. There's nothing like the various Aegis effects of the 4e Swordmage, and because of the way EK spellcasting works, it's not possible to add spells unique to them. The teleport is kind of neat, but is going to go wasted a lot, because the best use of Action Surge is to lay the smackdown on a single target. The EK is, necessarily and inherently, incapable of truly blending its parts together. Mostly blue (the Fighter chassis is very good at fighting pretty much no matter what) with a slice of yellow (spells that mostly don't interact with your fighting ability), and there's essentially no way to [I]make[/I] them interact any further because of the nature of both the overall Fighter class and the specific Eldritch Knight features. I could belabor the point by doing a similar analysis of Bladesinging or War Magic, but I won't. The analogy--60% blue, 40% yellow is fundamentally [I]not the same[/I] as 100% green--holds. The closest you can get is the Hexblade Blade Pact Warlock, and [I]that[/I] gets a bunch of people [I]really saucy[/I] about its very existence, soooooo.... I get, I truly really do [I]grok[/I], why a lot of players don't like what they call "class bloat." They see it as fiddly, persnickety. An unpleasable fanbase always begging for the next KEWL NU POWERZ, flitting from wasteful excess to wasteful excess rather than actually building something awesome. But...that's legit not how I see any of these things. I see it as "this is a clear archetype, one with either some solid presence in fiction or a fun twist on typical expectations, that really lacks for full-throated, [I]serious[/I] support." It's not about being fiddly or persnickety, but rather about saying, "I can [I]see[/I] how these parts COULD interact, but the rules as they exist don't LET them interact." The Warlord is to the Battle Master what the Druid is to the Ranger: not "part-X, part-Y," but "all Y." The Swordmage is to the Eldritch Knight what the Druid is to the Nature Cleric: sure, you can make a passable "nature priest" with the Nature domain...but it's not going to be anywhere near as [I]satisfying[/I], and you'll sure as heck never get something as cool as Moon Druid out of a Nature Cleric. The Avenger is a relatively new idea, represented in some modern media, a spin on faith and divinity poorly-represented in current D&D, where the Paladin is to much a clonky Big Damn Hero with a preoccupation for [I]rules[/I] and the Cleric is a clonky Church (literally) Militant Priest focused on [I]ministering[/I]: Avenger opens a space for a surety of faith that reads between lines, and has little interest in [I]proselytizing[/I] and much more interest in [I]holding clergy accountable[/I]. That it also has shades of "Demon Hunter" or the classic Van Helsing inspiration of the Cleric doesn't hurt at all. I will say, [I]if[/I] it were done well, I could actually see Avenger being a Rogue subclass, a divine equivalent of the Arcane Trickster. But it would need careful handling to not suck. So I'm not totally dogmatic about all these things needing their own classes. I just think most of them are [I]worthy[/I] of their own classes, because they'll do something [I]distinctive[/I] that isn't particularly feasible or even [I]possible[/I] with the current classes and subclasses. [/QUOTE]
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