Daggerheart Discussion

[Tigris]

People often are though. One of our players commented he'd probably get bored with DH over time.

Its also literally what I wrote in this thread after 1 play of Daggerheart. That I got the feeling that I would get bored over time. So its not only your players.


A level 3 DnD 5.24 character is just more interesting than a level 1 daggerheart 1. (And 3 is the new recommended starting level 1 and 2 were always just tutorial).


Daggerheart has on a short scale a more interesting progression than 5e (at least for non casters), but it has also a quite low floor (max 4 cards, subclass features are only minor).

 

[Reynard]

Its also literally what I wrote in this thread after 1 play of Daggerheart. That I got the feeling that I would get bored over time. So its not only your players.


A level 3 DnD 5.24 character is just more interesting than a level 1 daggerheart 1. (And 3 is the new recommended starting level 1 and 2 were always just tutorial).


Daggerheart has on a short scale a more interesting progression than 5e (at least for non casters), but it has also a quite low floor (max 4 cards, subclass features are only minor).

I just don't think a bunch of minor abilities is that big a draw, since most players don't really make good use of them anyway. YMMV of course.

 

[Tigris]

I just don't think a bunch of minor abilities is that big a draw, since most players don't really make good use of them anyway. YMMV of course.

Most people also do not make use of how fast their car is and still many like to buy a fast car.


Its also not just the number of ability its the range of abilities. The game design range in daggerheart is more limited.

 

[Reynard]

Most people also do not make use of how fast their car is and still many like to buy a fast car.


Its also not just the number of ability its the range of abilities. The game design range in daggerheart is more limited.

Again, that is not a huge draw for me and I don't guess it is for most people. Shadowdark and OSE and lots of games make due to with fewer and more curated ability pools than 5E.

 

[Tigris]

Again, that is not a huge draw for me and I don't guess it is for most people. Shadowdark and OSE and lots of games make due to with fewer and more curated ability pools than 5E.

Most people play 5e or maybe even PF2 and not OSE and not Shadowdark.

Yes its a big draw for most players. Discussing abilities and builds is also by far the most common discussions among players on message boards.

I can see why for GMs like you it does not matter, but it definitly does for players. Its literally one of the biggest draws of D&D.

And its also highlighted in D&D in other media. Baldurs gate 3 added more abilities (to weapons). The D&D movie highlighted the cool abilities existing etc.


Also Abilities are such an important/cool part of D&D likes that it started/is the focud of the whole LitRPG Fantasy trend/subgenre with 1000s of books and comics and animes. Even in popular modern literature / comics about swordfighters you dont just read about how they got better at swordfighting. No instead it is described how they gained new abilities. (Even if the abilities are just "evading better" or "focusing better" because abilities are cool!)

LitRPG - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[zakael19]

Counterpoint: MMOs exist and generally have very streamlined and concise primary "rotations" and yet people seem to play those for literal decades because as long as the core rotation is ok, the challenge of actually playing the game with others is where most of the fun comes in.

A game like DH lets you do far more outside of your abilities via the Experience + Action Roll system, allowing players to be fictionally creative and test outcomes. I think that's way cooler than a list of combat-focused tactical play, and lets us set Goals to achieve via an Action instead of worrying about discrete tasks, and then test to find out what happens (with really seamless group work/help actions that let you stay within the fiction but cost a resource for the latter).

 

[Reynard]

Most people play 5e or maybe even PF2 and not OSE and not Shadowdark.

Yes its a big draw for most players. Discussing abilities and builds is also by far the most common discussions among players on message boards.

I can see why for GMs like you it does not matter, but it definitly does for players. Its literally one of the biggest draws of D&D.

And its also highlighted in D&D in other media. Baldurs gate 3 added more abilities (to weapons). The D&D movie highlighted the cool abilities existing etc.


Also Abilities are such an important/cool part of D&D likes that it started/is the focud of the whole LitRPG Fantasy trend/subgenre with 1000s of books and comics and animes. Even in popular modern literature / comics about swordfighters you dont just read about how they got better at swordfighting. No instead it is described how they gained new abilities. (Even if the abilities are just "evading better" or "focusing better" because abilities are cool!)

LitRPG - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, then, it sure seems like you know what game is for you.

 

[Tigris]

Counterpoint: MMOs exist and generally have very streamlined and concise primary "rotations" and yet people seem to play those for literal decades because as long as the core rotation is ok, the challenge of actually playing the game with others is where most of the fun comes in.

MMOs literally are about the cool abilities. Yes you play rotations but you pick the class you play about the abilities. And you do rotations because the abilities are different such that you need to do rotations. And the new abilities classes gain is one of the biggest driving forces in expansions.

WoW literally lost millions of players when it began to streamline the abilities and rotations more and made the classes less different.

In MMOs your character is mostly the abilities, and people play classes because of them. Ever seen Black Desert online character trailers? Its all about highlighting the cool abilities this class has.

Mobas the and hero shooters, some of the most popular games, are also all about abilities. Abilities are so popular that now even most shooters begin to include different abilities for different characters.

A game like DH lets you do far more outside of your abilities via the Experience + Action Roll system, allowing players to be fictionally creative and test outcomes. I think that's way cooler than a list of combat-focused tactical play, and lets us set Goals to achieve via an Action instead of worrying about discrete tasks, and then test to find out what happens (with really seamless group work/help actions that let you stay within the fiction but cost a resource for the latter).

Almost every rpg lets you do that. You can in most rpg even in d&d 4e narrate things like "My character does thing X and because of my Background Y I am really good in it." (Your background might just be mechanically a skill proficiency)

4e also had an aid action. And in skill challenges comming so with creative solution was even rewarded.


So there is no need to have a lack of distinct interesting abilities in order to improvize and narrate things in fiction.


EDIT: Also daggerheart DOES have coded ability for combat. (Just less interesting ones than other games). If you dont want to have encoded abilities that would more be an argument against daggerheart and for something like cortex prime, where all is narratively.

Well, then, it sure seems like you know what game is for you.

Its more sbout knowing what players like. Even in daggerheart players talk about the abilities and take most time selecting them when making characters, so itd hard for me to see how one can have the conclusion thst cool abilities are not important.

This is also why every levelup in daggerheart gives 1 new ability. Because thats the most motivating part.

 

[Reynard]

Its more sbout knowing what players like. Even in daggerheart players talk about the abilities and take most time selecting them when making characters, so itd hard for me to see how one can have the conclusion thst cool abilities are not important.

This is also why every levelup in daggerheart gives 1 new ability. Because thats the most motivating part.

Sure. The argument was never that cool abilities don't matter. The argument is whether DH offers enough to make players happy. At least for the players I have run for, it seems to. Obviously some folks wish it had more.

 

[Tigris]

Sure. The argument was never that cool abilities don't matter. The argument is whether DH offers enough to make players happy. At least for the players I have run for, it seems to. Obviously some folks wish it had more.

Of course there is a target group for DH. And its great if people have fun with it.

I just find it problematic saying that it can do all the things 5e can, when it mathematically just cant, since it has a way narrower design space (in combat).


I also know people who are happy playing Uno and do prefer this over something complexer like Tichu. But I would still not say Uno can do all that Tichu can, just because both are about getting rid of the cards in their hand and because a small group of people I know prefers Uno / cant use the more complex tactics Tichu allows.