Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again season two discussion

[Ryujin]

So your argument is that any comic book based show can create whatever it wants, whenever it wants, with no in world or inuniverse explanation. One day we could just have an area in New York where gravity doesn't work correctly, people just walk through this area of 1/4 normal gravity....but no need to explain that, viewers will have no issues, its just a comic book after all.

That's a TERRIBLE basis for a narrative model. Its also anti-theatical to the pillar by which Marvel is based. What set Marvel apart from DC in the first place was it used "real places" like New York. The idea was that these were people and places that could actually exist, and then we thrown on the crazy comic book stuff. But that means you are still starting from a basis of real world realism. Everything is like it is in the real world....until you apply the comic book stuff. But if your going to add in the comic book stuff, you have to state that.

Now, I don't have a fundamental issue with the idea of making someone stateless, if that's one of the curveballs of the MCU wants to add in. Just....explain it to me. Have someone ask "so remove his citizenship, so Fisk won't have a country?" and some one responds "exactly that, no country, no home. Its a rare option but after the the 'insert law that doesn't exist in the real world' was passed, its an option for these extreme cases.


Ok so that's a new narrative weapon in the MCU, fine, got it....we move on. Rather than a bunch of us speculating because we don't even understand what you actually did in the story.

I'm not sure that they adequately explained how Red Hook is some sort of extra judicial freeport, either.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm not sure that they adequately explained how Red Hook is some sort of extra judicial freeport, either.

They gave us a legal charter earlier that explains it. Now is that legally realistic? Probably not....but I can understand how the MCU is different, you just have to show me. That to me was them doing that.

They went, ok here's a thing that doesn't quite make sense....and here is the narrative addon that makes it work and explains how they can use it narratively. Great, perfect...I move on. That's all I ask.

 

[Tonguez]

So your argument is that any comic book based show can create whatever it wants, whenever it wants, with no in world or inuniverse explanation. One day we could just have an area in New York where gravity doesn't work correctly, people just walk through this area of 1/4 normal gravity....but no need to explain that, viewers will have no issues, its just a comic book after all.

Did you see Thunderbolts? Age of Ultron? Thor?
Gravity not working in parts of New York has already happened, streets full of people have been turned into shadows, an entire half of the worlds population disappeared for 5 years.

The Fisk situation was explained - it was a deal offered by the AG. Which under real world logic is as plausible as the Mayor being able to declare martial law and arm his own militarized Taskforce.

The MCU may use real places but it is entirely a place were comic book logic is in effect - which is why two green giants having a slugfest through Harlem or aliens attacking Park Avenue have left no long term damage, and why the Blip had minimal effect on New York politics or society.

suspension of disbelief is a wonderful thing

 

[Clint_L]

absolutely this, it has been amusing me watching people trying to apply real world logic to the Fisk situation - as if Comic-books have ever followed real world logic.

But a story still has to make sense, and this one doesn't, not to me. Hand-waving logic "because Marvel-land" is just an excuse for a bad plot, IMO. People should still behave rationally; if you want the audience to be onboard with something that seems totally irrational, then you have to set that up.

This entire series, going back to Netflix, has been predicated on the idea of a superhero/lawyer and has been hewing more or less to what you would expect from a legal drama, when it comes to the courtroom scenes. And then suddenly a guy is publicly slaughtering citizens, still covered in their blood while being offered a plea deal that no AG ever would have either the authority or the public support to offer, and then we see him on a beach somewhere. That's just not credible within the parameters the show has already established. Not remotely. It's silly.

 

[Clint_L]

Did you see Thunderbolts? Age of Ultron? Thor?
Gravity not working in parts of New York has already happened, streets full of people have been turned into shadows, an entire half of the worlds population disappeared for 5 years.

All explained in those films. That's the difference - narratively, they made sense in the context of the story. For example, Infinity War was at pains to make us appreciate the gravity of the situation and exactly what Thanos wanted and how he could accomplish it.

The Fisk situation was explained - it was a deal offered by the AG. Which under real world logic is as plausible as the Mayor being able to declare martial law and arm his own militarized Taskforce.

Those were also ridiculous plot elements that were not well explained, though I understood the real world allegory they were going for, obviously.

The MCU may use real places but it is entirely a place were comic book logic is in effect - which is why two green giants having a slugfest through Harlem or aliens attacking Park Avenue have left no long term damage, and why the Blip had minimal effect on New York politics or society.

suspension of disbelief is a wonderful thing

No, this is not about comic book logic - I can accept Daredevil's super senses, etc. This is about basic narrative cohesion, regardless of genre. When you insert inexplicable plot elements, the audience will be confused and taken out of the story.

You are confusing comic book fantasy with plot incoherence. Fantastical elements in themselves do not create plot incoherence, as long as they are rationally established as an element of the setting.

 

[gnarlygninja]

I assumed the plea deal came from higher up than the AG, because of the CIA connection. Isn't Fontaine the one who calls the AG early in the season and makes him back off? It's still not a tremendously satisfying ending for me but more because I'm not sure I buy Matt being ok with it.

 

[Kaodi]

I assumed the plea deal came from higher up than the AG, because of the CIA connection. Isn't Fontaine the one who calls the AG early in the season and makes him back off? It's still not a tremendously satisfying ending for me but more because I'm not sure I buy Matt being ok with it.

Any deal to do with US citizenship does seem like it would be more attorney general of the United States rather than New York attorney general level territory.

 

[Tonguez]

I assumed the plea deal came from higher up than the AG, because of the CIA connection. Isn't Fontaine the one who calls the AG early in the season and makes him back off? It's still not a tremendously satisfying ending for me but more because I'm not sure I buy Matt being ok with it.

yes it was Fontaine, who is confirmed to have been Mr Charles' boss.
We know the writers arent allowed to kill Kingpin and we know that putting him in prison is pointless, so that leaves the conspiracy metaplot - where Fontaine operates.

I think people are also forgetting that Beach scenes have a symbolic role in the MCU, they underline the trauma finality of story arcs, but also moving on to something new. We can go back to Coulsons TAHITI scene (both the first one and his last 'real' one) , Iron Man 3 with Tony on the Malibu beach throwing his arc reactor in to the sea, and Shuri on the beach in Haiti in Wakanda Forever, and then the subversion of the trope in Nick Fury on a holographic beach at the start of Marvels.

Fisk on the beach leans in to the same symbolism - now we just have to wait to see if the next step is Fontaine playing her card or something else.

 

[pukunui]

Yes, that’s an idea! It’s possible Fontaine has sequestered Fisk somewhere with a plan to make use of him in some capacity in the future (rather than just let him go free to do whatever he likes).

 

[Stalker0]

It's still not a tremendously satisfying ending for me but more because I'm not sure I buy Matt being ok with it.

Yeah I think that's the crux of it for me. If the idea is that the CIA has finagled this crazy plea deal to get Wilson on an island so they can do XYZ with him....ok I could buy that narratively. Would have been nice to see just a little of that but I could see it.

But why would Matt be ok with that? Doesn't that just completely upend his entire character premise, that justice does NOT exist, that once your high enough up you don't answer to the law, etc.