D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[LuisCarlos17f]

Yes, the time travel is canon in DS.

How would be a "multiversal war" between different Athasian timelines? And the curious part is each timeline would be a "reincarnation" of previous timelines. The uptopian variants would be the "Heaven" and the distopian would be the equivalent to "infernal planes". And some "members" of the alliance of utopies really are only in the facade, but secretly they are dystopies. The souls of the criminals and sinners would be reincarnated in the dystopy, and the souls of the innocents and pures would rewared with a reincarnation in the utopic timeline.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Yes, the time travel is canon in DS.

How would be a "multiversal war" between different Athasian timelines? And the curious part is each timeline would be a "reincarnation" of previous timelines. The uptopian variants would be the "Heaven" and the distopian would be the equivalent to "infernal planes". And some "members" of the alliance of utopies really are only in the facade, but secretly they are dystopies. The souls of the criminals and sinners would be reincarnated in the dystopy, and the souls of the innocents and pures would rewared with a reincarnation in the utopic timeline.

that is a cool setting idea you do not even need darksun it would be cool full stop.
I would still include psionics as you would need a replacement for conventional clerics as gods would not let you make anything this cool.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes, the time travel is canon in DS.

How would be a "multiversal war" between different Athasian timelines? And the curious part is each timeline would be a "reincarnation" of previous timelines. The uptopian variants would be the "Heaven" and the distopian would be the equivalent to "infernal planes". And some "members" of the alliance of utopies really are only in the facade, but secretly they are dystopies. The souls of the criminals and sinners would be reincarnated in the dystopy, and the souls of the innocents and pures would rewared with a reincarnation in the utopic timeline.

It was never a utopia, just a slow descent into lesser evil after lesser evil.

Spoiler: Thri-kreen of athas pg3

We are now in the Brown Times, the age of our kind, when the
world is dry. The kreen are matchless in the dry times.
Long ago, were the Blue Times, when the world was new, and
there was water everywhere, so much water that it appeared blue.
The kreen of the Blue Time lived on pieces of land that floated
in the water. It is said that early kreen had great, gossamer wings,
which they used to fly between the pieces of land. They knew
nothing of tools and building, but even then they hunted. In
that age were only kreen and animals, and a few plants, on the
pieces of land.
Then, so slowly that no one could notice until it had already
happened, the water went away. The pieces of land grew roots,
and the roots grew together, until land covered most of the
world, and water stood in only a few places. Plants grew in profu-
sion over the new land. This was the Green Time.
During the Green Time, more animals were born, and hunt-
ing was good. The kreen, able to travel to more of the world, dis-
covered wondrous animals, kinds they could not have imagined.
During the Green Time, the kreen, much to their surprise, met
mammals who could talk. Not quite kreen, they became known
as dra-trin, the sleepers-like-people. Now we call them dra, and
we reserve the term term for those who are more similar to kreen.
The dra were small, but they, over time, gave rise to larger dra,
and the many kinds of dra filled their part of the world.
To resist the many races of dra, the kreen had to learn new
skills. It was during the Green Time that kreen learned the way
of fighting with the mind, and with weapons. The kreen fought,
and they built, and they learned to change themselves to
become better warriors and hunters. They survived.
Then came the beginning of the Brown Time, when dra
turned on dra, and they used terrible forces on one another.
These killed many plants and animals, and the world withered
and turned brown. Hunting became poor, but the kreen were
wise and skilled, and they could find prey where no others
could. And th e kreen became more numerous and more power-
ful, and formed great nations. The kreen of these before-times
built cities, and they made beings of power as well. Many kreen
were found in the world. Some stayed in the north, while others
went south, to live among the dra who were left, to work with
them and share knowledge with them.
In the now-times, still part of the Brown Time, there are still
many kreen in the world. In the south, the dra turned against the
kreen offer of peace, and the nations of the kreen fell. The kreen
of the south, where you live, run free, caring for little but the
hunt, living near the dra. And to the north? Well, you would be
surprised at the kreen of the north . . .
the history of the kreen,
as told by Klik-Chekada
zik-trinta, tohr-kreen scout

Though his perspective is skewed toward the kreen point of view,
Kliks telling of history is essentially a true one. Long ago, the
planet of Athas was covered with water, the non-kreen races call
this time the Blue Age, and during that time the halflings had a
great and powerful civilization. However, most people do not
realize that kreenthe mantis people, usually called by their
more specific names, thri-kreen and tohr-kreen lived during
that age as well.
During the Blue Age, the kreen were primitive, their develop-
ment stunted by their environment. The Blue Age ended and
the waters retreated, largely due to the actions of the ancient
halflings. Plants grew, and all manner of life spread across the
surface of Athas. The kreen met the halflings, as well as many of
the races that sprang from the halflings, among them dwarves,
elves, humans, and giants. The kreen evolved, they developed
weapons and a civilization. They honed their mental powers,
and many became masters of the Way.
Then came the Time of Magic, the age of Rajaat and of the
Cleansing Wars he launched to eliminate the offshoots of the
halfling race. The kreen did not study magic, nor were they a
part of the Cleansing Wars. Because they were not descended
from halflings, Rajaat saw the kreen as little more than ani-
mals.
At the end of the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat was imprisoned by
his champions, who then became the Sorcerer Kings of those
lands later called the Tyr Region. For a time, during the Cleans-
ing Wars, the kreen lived in peace with some of the non-kreen
peoples, but the ascension of the Sorcerer Kings ended that
peace. The kreen of the Tyr Region became the nomadic
hunters known as thri-kreen, the mantis warriors.

Civilization was developed, advanced & did wonderous things that had downsides realized too late to reverse. Thri-kreen do poorly with humidity & can develop "lung rot" (even PC thri-kreen). As to using time travel to go back & reverse course to a time when athas was a utopia? That was almost exactly what Rajaat tried to do with the cleansing wars. What point in the history of Athas was "utopia"?

 

[Mind of tempest]

It was never a utopia, just a slow descent into lesser evil after lesser evil.

Spoiler: Thri-kreen of athas pg3

We are now in the Brown Times, the age of our kind, when the
world is dry. The kreen are matchless in the dry times.
Long ago, were the Blue Times, when the world was new, and
there was water everywhere, so much water that it appeared blue.
The kreen of the Blue Time lived on pieces of land that floated
in the water. It is said that early kreen had great, gossamer wings,
which they used to fly between the pieces of land. They knew
nothing of tools and building, but even then they hunted. In
that age were only kreen and animals, and a few plants, on the
pieces of land.
Then, so slowly that no one could notice until it had already
happened, the water went away. The pieces of land grew roots,
and the roots grew together, until land covered most of the
world, and water stood in only a few places. Plants grew in profu-
sion over the new land. This was the Green Time.
During the Green Time, more animals were born, and hunt-
ing was good. The kreen, able to travel to more of the world, dis-
covered wondrous animals, kinds they could not have imagined.
During the Green Time, the kreen, much to their surprise, met
mammals who could talk. Not quite kreen, they became known
as dra-trin, the sleepers-like-people. Now we call them dra, and
we reserve the term term for those who are more similar to kreen.
The dra were small, but they, over time, gave rise to larger dra,
and the many kinds of dra filled their part of the world.
To resist the many races of dra, the kreen had to learn new
skills. It was during the Green Time that kreen learned the way
of fighting with the mind, and with weapons. The kreen fought,
and they built, and they learned to change themselves to
become better warriors and hunters. They survived.
Then came the beginning of the Brown Time, when dra
turned on dra, and they used terrible forces on one another.
These killed many plants and animals, and the world withered
and turned brown. Hunting became poor, but the kreen were
wise and skilled, and they could find prey where no others
could. And th e kreen became more numerous and more power-
ful, and formed great nations. The kreen of these before-times
built cities, and they made beings of power as well. Many kreen
were found in the world. Some stayed in the north, while others
went south, to live among the dra who were left, to work with
them and share knowledge with them.
In the now-times, still part of the Brown Time, there are still
many kreen in the world. In the south, the dra turned against the
kreen offer of peace, and the nations of the kreen fell. The kreen
of the south, where you live, run free, caring for little but the
hunt, living near the dra. And to the north? Well, you would be
surprised at the kreen of the north . . .
the history of the kreen,
as told by Klik-Chekada
zik-trinta, tohr-kreen scout

Though his perspective is skewed toward the kreen point of view,
Kliks telling of history is essentially a true one. Long ago, the
planet of Athas was covered with water, the non-kreen races call
this time the Blue Age, and during that time the halflings had a
great and powerful civilization. However, most people do not
realize that kreenthe mantis people, usually called by their
more specific names, thri-kreen and tohr-kreen lived during
that age as well.
During the Blue Age, the kreen were primitive, their develop-
ment stunted by their environment. The Blue Age ended and
the waters retreated, largely due to the actions of the ancient
halflings. Plants grew, and all manner of life spread across the
surface of Athas. The kreen met the halflings, as well as many of
the races that sprang from the halflings, among them dwarves,
elves, humans, and giants. The kreen evolved, they developed
weapons and a civilization. They honed their mental powers,
and many became masters of the Way.
Then came the Time of Magic, the age of Rajaat and of the
Cleansing Wars he launched to eliminate the offshoots of the
halfling race. The kreen did not study magic, nor were they a
part of the Cleansing Wars. Because they were not descended
from halflings, Rajaat saw the kreen as little more than ani-
mals.
At the end of the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat was imprisoned by
his champions, who then became the Sorcerer Kings of those
lands later called the Tyr Region. For a time, during the Cleans-
ing Wars, the kreen lived in peace with some of the non-kreen
peoples, but the ascension of the Sorcerer Kings ended that
peace. The kreen of the Tyr Region became the nomadic
hunters known as thri-kreen, the mantis warriors.

Civilization was developed, advanced & did wonderous things that had downsides realized too late to reverse. Thri-kreen do poorly with humidity & can develop "lung rot" (even PC thri-kreen). As to using time travel to go back & reverse course to a time when athas was a utopia? That was almost exactly what Rajaat tried to do with the cleansing wars. What point in the history of Athas was "utopia"?

not the sandblasted hellscape with a dying sun as after this all there will be is frozen rock

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Something I feel like adding, to give some texture to my "yes, but..." vote...

I run a game set in a desert where money, power, and magic can be a massive temptation and where morals can be...loose. This is a game directly inspired by several IRL cultures, most of which were in fact heavily reliant on slave labor. I thought, carefully, about the kind of world I wanted to portray.

And I decided not to include slavery as a practice. I did so because I didn't feel entirely up to the task of handling it with due diligence, and because I wasn't convinced that the darkness that slavery would add to the game would actually prove useful. I wanted to run a world that is bright enough to be worth saving, but at serious risk from dark things at its edges. As I like to call it, a "chiaroscuro" fantasy, rather than bright or dark alone.

That doesn't mean slavery never, ever occurs. Instead, it means slavery is illegal, and widely seen as immoral and unacceptable by the general populace. This led to the natural follow-up question: Why? In a setting where morality may easily bend to the whims of politics or business, why would slavery be so thoroughly unacceptable that even the powerful would avoid it and those who do practice it would keep it extremely well-hidden for fear of being totally ostracized?

And I found an answer, through the course of play (working with my players, asking and answering questions, and giving consequences for rolls.) Something I had already decided on, very early, was re-purposing the idea of the "Pre-Adamite Sultans" as the "Genie-Rajahs": powerful, clannish genies who ruled over the Tarrakhuna long ago, but then abandoned the mortal world for poorly-understood reasons, allowing mortal civilization to take hold and prosper in their absence. These Genie-Rajahs varied in their practices, but a lot of them practiced slavery, and many of them were extremely cruel or at least callous toward the plight of mortals living in their domain. Hence, to the ancestors of the modern-day residents of this region, slavery was anathema: it was emblematic of the evils and excesses of the Genie-Rajahs whom they had just overthrown, and all agreed they would not ever follow in those footsteps. Thus, enslaving other sapient beings is utterly unacceptable for sociocultural reasons. To enslave is to become, yourself, something inhuman and monstrous. Like other major evils--such as most forms of necromancy--anyone who enslaves other sapients does so secretly, knowing that the backlash if they were discovered would be swift and severe.

 

[Larnievc]

People say 'meant to be fought', but from my limited experience with DS (read a few books, owned the 4e book), it's... not?

I dunno man, the first adventure is called Freedom where slavery in Tyr is abolished. Tyr becomes the Free City.

That said I don’t know if Tyr is free in 4th Ed.

 

[dmar]

I personally find it patronizing that WotC has decided not to work on Dark Sun because they find it problematic.

I am an adult, I can deal with the portrayal of evil and need not be sheltered from it.

Treat me as an adult.

 

[Faolyn]

I personally find it patronizing that WotC has decided not to work on Dark Sun because they find it problematic.

I am an adult, I can deal with the portrayal of evil and need not be sheltered from it.

Treat me as an adult.

Not everyone who plays it is an adult or can deal with the portrayal of that particular evil. I'm sure there are particular evils that would upset you if they were portrayed in a game.

Don't forget that the Dark Sun canonically also has women who are enslaved to be breeding stock; i.e., sex slaves. Who nearly always die after giving birth. I can't help but wonder if people would be so eager to keep slavery in Dark Sun if the setting had men getting forcibly impregnated and dying as the result (there are sorcerer-kings; maybe this is how they make their minions), and this was considered to be an accepted societal norm.

But this brings up another question: why is slavery that important in Dark Sun? Would the setting truly be changed beyond recognition if there were no slaves?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Not everyone who plays it is an adult or can deal with the portrayal of that particular evil. I'm sure there are particular evils that would upset you if they were portrayed in a game.

I think we all have our limits. Which is fine. There are games and settings I avoid either because the content bothers me or it just isn’t something I want to play in a game. But I still think those things should exist. I think it’s better when you have a broad range of media appealing to a wide range of taste and sensibilities, rather than set the bar for a certain height for everything

Don't forget that the Dark Sun canonically also has women who are enslaved to be breeding stock; i.e., sex slaves. Who nearly always die after giving birth. I can't help but wonder if people would be so eager to keep slavery in Dark Sun if the setting had men getting forcibly impregnated and dying as the result (there are sorcerer-kings; maybe this is how they make their minions), and this was considered to be an accepted societal norm.

That is pretty grim but it also a grim setting that harkens darker pages of history and dark sword abd sorcery-post apocalyptic (the latter of which often gets into how evil people are to one another when things break down)

But this brings up another question: why is slavery that important in Dark Sun? Would the setting truly be changed beyond recognition if there were no slaves?

To me it seems about as important as slavery is to Roman settings. I think it would be hard to have the same stories without it (imagine Agora or Spartacus without slavery). So much if the Dark Sun setting I remember experiencing as a player dealt with this theme

 

[dmar]

Not everyone who plays it is an adult or can deal with the portrayal of that particular evil. I'm sure there are particular evils that would upset you if they were portrayed in a game.

Nobody is being forced to buy it.
if there was the case that something was too upsetting for me, I would just not buy it, I would not want it to be censored.