D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Micah Sweet]

I never said it was Dark Sun unique. I said it contain all of them in a prominent position. (I can't forget I forgot Physical and Political Oppression).

The issue is that if you remove all of this, it isn't Dark Sun. It's just a generic wasteland setting with Dark Sun names.
There is no money in that as you anger old day and made something boring for potential fans.

WOTC could make a profitable wasteland setting. But it wont be Dark Sun.

Again, publishing something named Dark Sun would at least open the setting up to the DMsGuild.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Here is the 4e text on Muls (from the Campaign Guide):

Muls are half-dwarves, descended from the union of a human and a dwarf. They have the stature, agility, and mental flexibility of humankind, coupled with the physical resilience and endurance of dwarves - a rare combination of qualities that makes muls more​

than a simple blend of the two races.​

​

Because they are strong, tough, quick, and blessed with fantastic endurance, muls are highly prized as slaves. In fact, most muls are born into slavery.​

​

Play a mul if you want...​

• to be tough as nails.
• to play a hero who fought his or her way out of the bonds of slavery.
• to be a member of a race that favors the fighter, barbarian, and battlemind classes.

. . .​

​

Most muls begin their lives as slaves. Slaveholders throughout the Tyr Region have long known that tremendous hardiness and stamina result from mixing human and dwarven lines. Muls make outstanding gladiators, slave warriors, and heavy laborers, enduring toil and hardships that would kill lesser folk.​

​

Muls who set their hearts on freedom are difficult to keep in chains. Some escape to the wilds and become raiders or join tribes of ex-slaves, whereas others who escape become mercenaries and sell their fighting skills to whomever they can. Muls who don’t flee captivity can win their freedom in the arena or by completing a dangerous task for their masters. A few highly prized gladiators receive so many privileges and comforts that they are effectively free, enjoying great latitude to go where they want and do as they wish. The Dungeon Master might have mul heroes start the campaign as slaves. If not, assume that your mul character has already won his or her freedom by the time the game begins.​

​

Muls are hard, driven, pragmatic folk with little remorse or sympathy in their hearts. Many grow up under the lash, having been taken from their parents while very young and subjected to brutal training for the arena or grinding toil in fields or quarries. Consequently, muls have a hard time offering friendship and trust to anyone. More than a few muls, scarred by the hardships of their upbringing, spend their days as bitter, violent misanthropes. Others are suspicious, grasping mercenaries who have learned never to lift a finger on behalf of another person without establishing what they will gain from providing aid. Despite their tendency to be sullen or self-centered, muls can learn to work alongside others. Growing up in the slave pits and the underclass of society taught them how to forge alliances and understandings; their survival demanded nothing less. . . .​

​

The word “mul” is derived from the Dwarven term mulzhennedar, which means “strength.” Pronunciation varies​

throughout the Tyr Region; the word can be pronounced as mool, mull, or mule, although this last variation is considered derogatory and might start a fight. Given the derivation of the name, sages who care about such matters regard mull as the most accurate pronunciation.​

I think it illustrates some of the problems that a 5e-era revival of Dark Sun would face.

That sounds like a great character concept, to be fair. I've seen many stories featuring protagonists with similar backstories.

 

[pemerton]

That sounds like a great character concept, to be fair. I've seen many stories featuring protagonists with similar backstories.

No disagreement.

But I think it's also rife with problems - eg that being treated harshly (as a slave) makes you a harsh person, that being exploited (as a slave) makes you a callous mercenary exploiter of others; plus the hints of "forced breeding" (= rape or something in that neighbourhood).

I'm not in any way saying it's unplayable. In my 4e Dark Sun game, one of the PCs played a Mul, who was indeed an escaped slave.

But I can see why a commercial publisher in WotC's vein would want to handle it with extreme care.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No disagreement.

But I think it's also rife with problems - eg that being treated harshly (as a slave) makes you a harsh person, that being exploited (as a slave) makes you a callous mercenary exploiter of others; plus the hints of "forced breeding" (= rape or something in that neighbourhood).

I'm not in any way saying it's unplayable. In my 4e Dark Sun game, one of the PCs played a Mul, who was indeed an escaped slave.

But I can see why a commercial publisher in WotC's vein would want to handle it with extreme care.

From what I can see, they've chosen to not handle it at all instead.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Who could feel offended or unconfortable with a revival of DS, Russian or Chinese goverment? Who dares to talk in the name of the "modern sensibilities"?

If I draw a group of thraxes (Athasian "vampires") with turbants.... would be offensive? But if they were vampires wearing morrions(the helms used by Spanish conquerors), then as if nothing happened.

Really can't it be fixed with a reboot of the setting? We change or skip those details.

Are there more risks than other settings if it is unlocked in DS?

What if the khaastas catched Athasians in one of their planar raids, but after with help of giths these started a rebellion, and when they recovered their freedom they created settles in other place?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Who dares to talk in the name of the "modern sensibilities"?

I feel like the 38 page thread suggests 'plenty of people'.

 

[Umbran]

Who could feel offended or unconfortable with a revival of DS, Russian or Chinese goverment?

Mod Note:
Next time, please don't suggest that folks who disagree with you about a hobby entertainment are like authoritarian governments. The hyperbole is the opposite of constructive.

 

[Minigiant]

Again, publishing something named Dark Sun would at least open the setting up to the DMsGuild.

I don't think they want spend resources policing Dark Sun homebrew on DM' Guild either.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think they want spend resources policing Dark Sun homebrew on DM' Guild either.

They police everything else on DMsGuild, so why not?

 

[Minigiant]

They police everything else on DMsGuild, so why not?

Do they?

I haven't heard of them actually blocking anyone due to problematic content.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Do they?

I haven't heard of them actually blocking anyone due to problematic content.

Because they're clear about their terms.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Do they?

I haven't heard of them actually blocking anyone due to problematic content.

A lot of Ravenloft stuff on the Guild, and a good deal of it doesn't exactly match up with VRGtR's version of the setting.

 

[Hussar]

Yeoch. And that’s the 4e text? I can only imagine the 2e version.

 

[Scribe]

So you end up with an intellectual property whose face is a drugged out, mind washed, genocidal child soldier and is presented as heroic. No matter how you slice it, GW put themselves into a tough spot.

There's no squaring that circle lol.

 

[CM]

What is D&D if not slaying problematic things and taking their stuff?

 

[DMZ2112]

Do they?

I haven't heard of them actually blocking anyone due to problematic content.

The only specific examples I'm aware of are instances of Wizards blocking LGBTQ content on the grounds of explicitness, but they do review and block content. This was one of the popular arguments against the morality clause in the OGL 1.1.

I'm reasonably certain DM's Guild content has to be flagged with a complaint before it is reviewed in detail, just based on how these things are usually run in the corporate wild, but I'm not privy to the specific internal workings of OBS or WotC.

Because you're doing this weird 'sympathy for things that kill us' thing. Like with the cannibals. Which has gotten weirdly away from fetishizing them in game and turned to advocating for real life cannibals for some reason.

Because, in a phrase, advocating for undesirable minority faith (and undesirable animal welfare, separately) is kind of my jam. As I said in my very first post on the subject, I find your position that cannibals should not be advocated for to be weird.

But your observation that the real problem is pulp authors' depiction of cannibalism is well taken in the context of the thread, since that is broadly how halfling cannibalism is depicted in Dark Sun.

This could be rectified without removing the actual cannibalism, however.

...Also, where does that giant iron cauldron always come from? I never thought about that before.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Sorry, any times my words aren't in the right way.

Could anything published by WotC allowed in our society, but censored in other country?

I can understand they worry about the modern sensibilities but we should know if they are using the good sense and the reason, or only obeying an ideologic agenda imposed from somebody from out.

We know cannibalism is wrong, but when I was a child we could watch Tarzan movies, or adventures in the jungle with cannibals. There is a LEGO box with the title "the cannibal escape" based in "Pirates of the Caribean".

I suppose even children can understand in Athas some halfling tribes are "good" and others are "evil" and antropophages.

There is a logical reason to explain the slavery should be "softer" in Athasian Tablelands

“Never attempt to win by force what can be won by deception.” ― Niccolò Machiavelli

“There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.” ― John Adams.

'None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free' - Goethe

'The greatest enemy is one that has nothing to lose.' - Christopher Paolini

Please, don't misunderstand me. I mean the sorcerer-kings are enough smart to create an illusion of freedom to keep under control the masses. Their tactic is "squeeze but don't choke". They would rather to trick by means of false hopes. The citizens wil be more obedient if they believe the sorcerer-kings are their saviors, and their misery is a penance because they were horrible sinners in a previous life (maybe this could be true).

Any gamer with enough experience with city-building videogames should realise the Athasian economy and demography should be realistic.

* I suggest the "retcon" the souls of the innocent sentient beings are "reincarnated" into the "land-within-the-wind", althought this suffered too much by the defilers. The grey is a horrible place, but this shouldn't be the ultimate fate of all the Athasian souls.

* I could allow living constructs in DS, but with a little trick. To survive they don't need water or food, but to hide among the "fleshies" they "wear" a "layer by living issue", and this needs food. Something like the cyborgs T-800 from Terminator franchise.

* What if after the death of Kalak the Athaspace suffered a cosmic event like the "Sundering" in the Realmspace?

 

[AnotherGuy]

That sounds like a great character concept, to be fair. I've seen many stories featuring protagonists with similar backstories.

I have to echo this. That write up is straight up inspiring. I've never owned or read Dark Sun content. I've always been curious though.

 

[humble minion]

We know cannibalism is wrong, but when I was a child we could watch Tarzan movies, or adventures in the jungle with cannibals. There is a LEGO box with the title "the cannibal escape" based in "Pirates of the Dark Water".

I suppose even children can understand in Athas some halfling tribes are "good" and others are "evil" and antropophages.

i have to say, it sometimes does my head in a bit to consider the difference in how portrayals of problematic material are viewed between the D&D/TTRPG community and, for instance, the Warhammer community or the video games community.

Looking at, for instance, Total War: Warhammer (to cover both video game AND Warhammer bases!) - we have one playable faction (Dark Elves) whose game mechanics are specifically built around slavery (the upcoming Chaos Dwarves may do something similar), and at least three (Ogre Kingdoms, Grom the Paunch, and Skaven) where eating your defeated enemies is a major game mechanic. And this is a game that has a PG13 rating, and is in live development and release now. It's not a relic of the 90s or anything.

Now, i certainly get that there's all sorts of aspects of the WH and video game community that I wouldn't want to see replicated in the TTRPG community, and also that there's an argument that in TTRPG things are different because it's more first-person, more immersive, and that it's YOUR avatar who's experiencing all these things. But the fact remains that there's continual long threads like this one about the TTRPG side of the issue, while over on the Total War reddit nobody even talks about it at all. So strange that two such closely-related corners of geek culture have such wildly different mores and attitudes.

 

[Hussar]

I have to echo this. That write up is straight up inspiring. I've never owned or read Dark Sun content. I've always been curious though.

Do you really not see the problem though? Forced eugenics, breeding slaves for specific traits, misanthropic, sullen... Do you actually not see why this might a problem?