Dealing with the low-Cha party

[Al'Kelhar]

Due to some inept tactical decisions a fortnight ago, half the party of 6 9th level characters was killed by an an 8th level mage and a pair of 6th level warriors. The deceased included the cleric, the paladin and the sorcerer, all of whom had high Cha. The players decided not to raise their characters but build new ones; in the great spirit of munchkinism, we now have a party of low-Cha characters (the highest being the wizard with Cha 12). Of the six characters, four have not spent any points on Cha - two Cha 6 dwarves and two Cha 8 characters. This [annoys] me no end, so I'm gonna spank these munchkins soundly where it hurts - not in the role playing department, but in the dungeon.

Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

So, hit me with ideas for Cha-draining monsters, magic and traps. Because of the nature of the dungeon they're going to explore shortly, undead and poisons are most likely, but all the characters have high Fort saves. Things which hit Will saves would be great.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Chimera]

Time for a Psion.

Ego Whip (Psion/Wilder 2) Will save for 1/2 damage.

Does d4 Charisma damage (min 1, even on save). Failing the save also Dazes for one round.

 

[mmu1]

Due to some inept tactical decisions a fortnight ago, half the party of 6 9th level characters was killed by an an 8th level mage and a pair of 6th level warriors. The deceased included the cleric, the paladin and the sorcerer, all of whom had high Cha. The players decided not to raise their characters but build new ones; in the great spirit of munchkinism, we now have a party of low-Cha characters (the highest being the wizard with Cha 12). Of the six characters, four have not spent any points on Cha - two Cha 6 dwarves and two Cha 8 characters. This [annoys] me no end, so I'm gonna spank these munchkins soundly where it hurts - not in the role playing department, but in the dungeon.

So... Because something annoys you, you're going to try to punish them and waste their time? Who don't you treat them like adults instead and try to talk to them to see if you can reconcile your ideas of what makes for a fun D&D game instead of pulling nonsense like that.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

So... Because something annoys you, you're going to try to punish them and waste their time? Who don't you treat them like adults instead and try to talk to them to see if you can reconcile your ideas of what makes for a fun D&D game instead of pulling nonsense like that.

Whoa,

This seems a little harsh. I think the original query was meant with a small amount of levity. There's nothing wrong with looking for something that will challenge your party like what he is doing.
However, if you go too far with it, then the fun will evaporate fairly quickly - they will feel picked on rather than challenged. I think that is all mmu1 was trying to say.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Turanil]

So... Because something annoys you, you're going to try to punish them and waste their time? Who don't you treat them like adults instead and try to talk to them to see if you can reconcile your ideas of what makes for a fun D&D game instead of pulling nonsense like that.

I second this opinion. Why punish them? If at all necessary, I would do it on a roleplaying level. Dunno... they soon get a derisive nickname as a group that will be recalled one way or the other each adventuring session. They will soon become legends in towns and cities, bards singing their deeds, but always in a bad light. They would be ridiculed, and often not welcome " Eh you! Leave the tavern, your presence gives a bad reputation to my business!". That sort of thing. They eventually will suffer from it more than from Cha draining monsters (btw: what's the point draining their low Cha?), and it would make for a different sort of campaign after all.

 

[MCakaTLK]

I second this opinion. Why punish them? If at all necessary, I would do it on a roleplaying level. Dunno... they soon get a derisive nickname as a group that will be recalled one way or the other each adventuring session. They will soon become legends in towns and cities, bards singing their deeds, but always in a bad light. They would be ridiculed, and often not welcome " Eh you! Leave the tavern, your presence gives a bad reputation to my business!". That sort of thing. They eventually will suffer from it more than from Cha draining monsters (btw: what's the point draining their low Cha?), and it would make for a different sort of campaign after all.

Malarky, squared and cubed. If players work the rules in such a blatent manner to give themselves distinct advantages in combat by taking weakness that they may or may not think will factor into the fighting, there is nothing wrong with showcasing those weaknesses in combat. IMHO, roleplaying strengths and weaknesses should not cross into combat, and vice versa. "Charisma is not a combat stat" is a feeling that should have gone out with 2nd edition, and if players (or DMs for that matter) haven't realized that, they should get burned once in a while.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

I second this opinion. Why punish them? If at all necessary, I would do it on a roleplaying level. Dunno... they soon get a derisive nickname as a group that will be recalled one way or the other each adventuring session. They will soon become legends in towns and cities, bards singing their deeds, but always in a bad light. They would be ridiculed, and often not welcome " Eh you! Leave the tavern, your presence gives a bad reputation to my business!". That sort of thing. They eventually will suffer from it more than from Cha draining monsters (btw: what's the point draining their low Cha?), and it would make for a different sort of campaign after all.

I agree with this as well, though part of me wonders if the poster's intent is to show that Cha isn't really a dump stat anymore. RPing can work well, but PCs with High Charismas yet who perform bad deeds & actions could suffer similar situations.

I'd emphasize not just pure-RPing situations that tie into the stat, but a few more mechanically-based ones as well. For example, being able to meet a particularly high DC via a Cha-based skill check, or using a Cha-based ability like turn undead or Wild Empathy in order to successfully achieve a key goal of an adventure. And to a degree, possibly showing how dangerous it is to have any stat at a low number (esp. a below average one).

Then again, I think it's feasible that the players are having an adverse reaction to past adventures & campaign events. I know that I've encountered several players in my group all trying to get a high Dex, and often taking classes & races that focus on using high Dex. Essentially, they're seeing Dex as "the" stat to have, combat-wise. However, what they often don't realize is that in certain situations, Dex can be worthless--if the PCs are flat-footed, held, in an area that severely limits movement, has no value when it comes to Will- or Fort-based saves, etc. The nice thing about D&D is that each stat his its uses & limits.

I think that it's a good strategy for a group to have all the bases covered--at the least, each party member should have a stat (maybe 2, if it's a smaller group) which they excel in. It allows the party a chance to have someone present who can deal with a particular situation that the other party members can't handle. The party shouldn't solely consist of members with maxed-out or almost-maxed-out values in each stat, but then again, they really shouldn't have a general lack or weakness in the same area(s) either.

 

[Pbartender]

I won't try to talk you out of it, so if you REALLY want to do it, there are actually only a very few Charisma-drainers...

Ghosts with the Corrupting Gaze (Gaze attack, 30' range, 2d10 damage + 1d4 Cha damage, Fort negates) or the Draining Touch (Ethereal touch attack, 1d4 Cha drain) are probably what you are looking for.

Spells are more effective, but you can't actually use them to reduce an ability to 0... Touch of Idiocy is a 2nd-level Sorcerer/Wizard touch spell that deals 1d6 Int, Wis and Cha damage for 10 min./level with no save (though you can't reduce them below 1). Bestow curse can also inflict a -6 reduction to a single ability score (again, it can't go below 1).

Ungol Dust is the only poison that deals Cha damage... Inhaled, DC 15, Initial: 1 Cha, Secondary 1d6 Cha damage + 1 Cha drain.


A gang of ghosts would be pretty rough on a group like this.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Thanks to those who have provided input to the questions asked. To those others who question my motives for asking for the assistance in the first place, I'd prefer you didn't judge them without understanding the gaming dynamic in my group. [My group consists of six 30-something males who descend into adolescence when playing D&D; not only do they giggle at "rude words", but as an example, last week when I asked one of the players to describe the events of the session so far to a late-arriving player, those parts of the session which consisted of one PC gathering information from a number of NPCs was described as "Fred [not his real name] wasted 20 minutes talking to this guy, then wasted another 10 minutes talking to this other guy...". These players could care [little] for the in-game "reputation" of their characters]. So indulge me a little. How would you demonstrate that Cha is not a dump-stat to those players whose PCs' interaction with NPCs consists of killing them and taking their stuff?

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

So indulge me a little. How would you demonstrate that Cha is not a dump-stat to those players whose PCs' interaction with NPCs consists of killing them and taking their stuff?

Well, personally, if it was really beginning to bug me I'd start openly making fun of them for saying things like "Fred wasted 20 minutes talking to this guy," and for making characters who have all the vibrant personality of a stalk of celery. When one of them wanted something from an NPC, I'd mock them for even thinking about stuff like that, considering how unremarkable and antisocial their characters are. If things continued, I'd probably depopulate the game world and let everything slide into completely generic descriptions.

"You enter The Town. I guess there's The Tavern and The Street and then, oh, I guess The Store. And other stuff, but all of that is melting into a grey mist. What's down The Street? Just mist. Doesn't matter. It's not like anyone actually gives a crap about what's in any of these towns anyway, right? Besides, it's not like any of your characters can do anything interesting in a town, so I don't know why you bother going to them." (Fun fact: I had a GM in high school who did this exact thing, and it got IMMEDIATE behavior modification from everyone at the table. )

Then again, I might just stop running D&D for them and start running games where killing people and taking their stuff is no longer an option (or at least not the choice that brings the most power and rewards). Eventually the savvier players in the group will notice that talky, social characters get to do all the fun stuff and be the coolest people around while the mumbling combat grunts are left with absolutely nothing to do, and maybe some of them will discover that it's sort of fun to have in-character conversations and act like your PC actually lives in the gameworld.


But that's me. I'm kind of a sarcastic jerk, and also I don't have much fun running a game where the PCs don't ever have any social interaction with the gameworld; players like the ones you describe would have gotten right up my nose very early on.

So I'd be trying to make them feel ashamed of only being at the table to roll a d20 and see who dies, and taking kind of a passive-aggressive route towards bullying them into playing in a way that makes GMing more fun for me.

Maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't, but I know for a fact that the idea of Charisma-draining traps and monsters just doesn't make any sense to me. Man, if the problem is them not playing characters who can have social interaction with NPCs, the last thing I'd care about is whether I could find a way to make low Charisma a liability in hack-and-slash combat. How much social interaction are they going to be getting there? What do I gain from getting them to buy up their Cha just to not die in yet another tedious, personality-free combat scene?

--
this thread makes me realize how grateful i am for the people i game with
ryan