D&D General Dice randomness for the... win?

[Ralif Redhammer]

It happens, but that's part of RPGs being both a game and a story. Sometimes chance (or skill) drastically changes the course of a fight. An epic fight can flop, a band of mooks can get lucky.

When you have such massive outputs of damage, I think that increases the chances of an encounter getting trivialized.

 

[billd91]

This is just regular 5E, and I'm using the conversion from Infinite Staircase. I do beef it up, for the 8 person party, but couldn't think of a good way for THIS encounter... Not without turning her into just a YUGE bag of hp, or ruining the premise of the story.

My group is 6 players - I have to boost hit points a LOT, particularly boss monster/solo encounters. I would almost certainly do it a bit more for 8 players.

Once nice thing about the 5.5 rules for powerful NPCs - much higher initiative bonuses. I'm having a lot fewer examples of a powerful opponent going late in the initiative. Infinite Staircase is prior to that, if I remember correctly (my copy may have made its way to my daughter's room at the moment), so Drelnza's initiative may not be as high as it will undoubtedly be in the future Greyhawk adventure featuring her.

 

[MarkB]

I mean, you had a single villain versus, by my count, eight PCs, it was never going to be a long fight.

From the description it seems like everyone was doing their job, paladins are supposed to be a nova-damage powerhouse versus fiends and undead, and barbarians are meant to be generalised hard-hitters. A few lucky rolls for them and a couple of unlucky ones for you is always on the cards.

 

[Gorg]

My group is 6 players - I have to boost hit points a LOT, particularly boss monster/solo encounters. I would almost certainly do it a bit more for 8 players.

Once nice thing about the 5.5 rules for powerful NPCs - much higher initiative bonuses. I'm having a lot fewer examples of a powerful opponent going late in the initiative. Infinite Staircase is prior to that, if I remember correctly (my copy may have made its way to my daughter's room at the moment), so Drelnza's initiative may not be as high as it will undoubtedly be in the future Greyhawk adventure featuring her.

IIRC, her initiative is +4. She was #5 in initiative order. It was just her bad luck, that the wizard, paladin, and barbarian were 2,3,and 4, lol.

The funny part is, the thief's is +6- and more often than not- he goes last or second to last. You can count on him blowing his init roll, lol. Meanwhile Druid's is +3, and she is middle of the pack at WORST- often rolling 20's.

This actually works out for the best: the Thief (carric) can wait until an ally is in melee with someone, then use Sneak attack for devastating hits. 7d6 + Dex for his shortbow with a normal arrow, 7d6 + Dex +2 for his magic shortsword. (longtooth- from the room with the clay golem in Tsojcanth. He got it, as shortsword is his primary weapon- and nobody else uses one) If he goes first, it's just a normal 1d6+ Dex shortbow.

The druid tends to alternate between Shillelah on her Staff +1, Flame Blade, and Moonbeam. Depends on the number and seriousness of the foes. There are 4 full casters, sooo. Outside, she gets to use Call Lightning, Entangle, and other such fun spells.

 

[Gorg]

I mean, you had a single villain versus, by my count, eight PCs, it was never going to be a long fight.

From the description it seems like everyone was doing their job, paladins are supposed to be a nova-damage powerhouse versus fiends and undead, and barbarians are meant to be generalised hard-hitters. A few lucky rolls for them and a couple of unlucky ones for you is always on the cards.

True. I figured she would NOT like fighting my Paladin, lol. Aside from the Battle Axe +2 +4 vs undead (thanks Gary!!), I noticed when levelling him up that he can now do an extra 1d8 radiant on melee attacks- full stop. Which stacks with Holy Smite.

That makes his hits on her every bit as devastating as her hits with Heretic. Esp if he has plenty of spell slots available, lol- and he usually does, because with a cleric and druid in the party, he rarely needs to use a spell slot to heal or aid anyone. (not to mention the laundry list of helpful PASSIVE class features paladins get.)

Blair the Barbarian lives up to that role quite enthusiastically! (he got his name from an old aquaintence whose nickname was Encino Man, lol) If it's a problem that can't be solved by the liberal application of his great axe- or strength- he just leaves it up to the others to deal with. The occasional growl with a nasty grin to scare the crap out of weak opponents is just good fun!

And then there would STILL be the Cleric. And he is no slouch in a fight either. only 1 attack, but with Whelm and the clerical version of Holy Smite- which does NOT cost any spell slots- he can hit VERY hard with that one attack. Or the nice array of spells he can cast. And on this occasion- that sword she weilded was extremely offensive to him, blasphemous, even, so he was definitely motivated. (NG Twilight Cleric of Selune)

The real dilemma is what to DO with Heretic. Nobody wants it- we're all good aligned. Nobody wants to leave it for someone to find- and turn loose on the world, either.

Ah well. There is still the dragon. That could make for an interesting fight. They found it- but chose to continue trying to get into the vault. (sneaky Rogue stuff, he THINKS he got away without being spotted- but did he really?)

 

[Retros_x]

1 vs Many is almost always a crap shoot.

IME, the 1 vs many fights are rarely as dramatic as the GM/module designer was hoping.

Yeah, I learned this the hard way. Single bosses rarely deliver an exciting fight if you use 5e vanilla statblocks. Due to action economy you either need minions supporting the boss or a statblock design that uses a lot of additional (legendary) actions and reactions. I like the approach of action oriented monsters by Matt Collville that gives the monsters exciting actions that they use in a specific round of combat, often combined with movement and repositioning.

 

[Koloth]

Yeah, I learned this the hard way. Single bosses rarely deliver an exciting fight if you use 5e vanilla statblocks. Due to action economy you either need minions supporting the boss or a statblock design that uses a lot of additional (legendary) actions and reactions. I like the approach of action oriented monsters by Matt Collville that gives the monsters exciting actions that they use in a specific round of combat, often combined with movement and repositioning.

Not just a D&D 5 or even D&D issue. A recent Traveller encounter featured a large spidery robot vs party + NPC Marines. Robot just barely made it through the init list once even with a craptastic pile of HP. Plus over the years I have seen a lot of 1 v Many encounters. Normally very little drama. Over one way or the other very quickly.

If you want drama, either include on site minions with the boss fight or the boss encounter happens after a sequence of encounters with no rest possible.

 

[billd91]

IIRC, her initiative is +4. She was #5 in initiative order. It was just her bad luck, that the wizard, paladin, and barbarian were 2,3,and 4, lol.

Oh, yeah, bad luck is bad luck. But my prediction is that she'll be adding double her proficiency bonus to her initiative in the adventure to come out with her updated 5.5 stats. So something in the +15 to +17 range is my expectation.

 

[Voadam]

Yeah, I learned this the hard way. Single bosses rarely deliver an exciting fight if you use 5e vanilla statblocks. Due to action economy you either need minions supporting the boss or a statblock design that uses a lot of additional (legendary) actions and reactions. I like the approach of action oriented monsters by Matt Collville that gives the monsters exciting actions that they use in a specific round of combat, often combined with movement and repositioning.

I have had good experiences applying 4e elite and solo monster type mechanic concepts to regular monsters in 5e (and Pathfinder 1e) for boss types.

For an elite leader of a group fighting with others double their hp, make their single target attacks hit two targets (twin spell or such) or double their attacks, and perhaps give them two reactions or an extra thing to do once off round. Counts as two monsters for xp but lasts and hits harder than a single one while the numbers are still party level appropriate.

For a solo to be a big engaging climax fight give them hp x party member number (or alternately x4 or x5), turn their single target attacks into area ones (blasts, whirlwind attacks, etc.), give them a reaction or action in between every PC's turn, make them immune to or reduce the effects of lockdown effects.

 

[Gorg]

I have had good experiences applying 4e elite and solo monster type mechanic concepts to regular monsters in 5e (and Pathfinder 1e) for boss types.

For an elite leader of a group fighting with others double their hp, make their single target attacks hit two targets (twin spell or such) or double their attacks, and perhaps give them two reactions or an extra thing to do once off round. Counts as two monsters for xp but lasts and hits harder than a single one while the numbers are still party level appropriate.

For a solo to be a big engaging climax fight give them hp x party member number (or alternately x4 or x5), turn their single target attacks into area ones (blasts, whirlwind attacks, etc.), give them a reaction or action in between every PC's turn, make them immune to or reduce the effects of lockdown effects.

Well, they decided they want to go back and deal with that dragon. They did not long rest in the vault- didn't need to. They were full strength goin in, so only down 1 2nd and 1 6th level slots, and no injuries.

I'm using the 5.5E Monster Manual, and adding the lair actions from the OG 5E. (why did they remove them?? or am I missing this section. likewise, why no bite attack???) Adult Black dragon. This IS it's lair, so I applied the boosts for that already. It's init is around +12 or +13, which is way better than the party's. Throwing those legendary actions in there helps, too! (this time I will remember to use them, dammit!!!)

Making it an Elite monster would definitely toughen it up. I want to do that, too.

I looked up Adult Black Dragon in all 3 Monster manuals: 5E, 5.5E, and Level Up. all 3 were very different monsters!

I liked 5.5e's version best, but it, too is missing something... BITE, tail, wing attacks

Gotta say, I LOVE how they added it's Initiative bonus line to the top of the stat block. Great change! Same for doing the math, and printing it's saves right along with it's ability scores. Another great usability change. I actually started doing this on MY character sheets, new and rewrites, lol.

And finally, rolling spell casting options right into it's actions. Again, a minor change that makes the DM's life a bit easier.

Example: in the multi-attack entry for this dragon, it can make three Rend attacks, or two plus a Melf's Acid Arrow (upcast 1 level)

It also ties the at-willl Fear spell it can cast to it's frightful Presence legendary action. The addition of Pounce as a legendary reaction it CAN repeat, is nice- move and attack once, on someone else's turn.