D&D General Disentangling D&D from D&D Fantasy

[Reynard]

Over the decades, "D&D Fantasy" has become its own genre. The reciprocal relationship between D&D and video games has not only embedded this sub-genre, but given it relatively consistent visual tropes and mechanical implementations. The decade or so of popularity of TSR setting novels also entangled the visual language of paperback fantasy with D&D -- even when the books had little or nothing to do with D&D fantasy -- and that is to say nothing of the generation of fantasists who grew up on D&D and its influence on their work.

What I wonder is: is it possible to disentangle D&D Fantasy from the game of D&D, to do D&D in a different or new flavor of fantasy? What would it take? Could D&D's "sacred cow" mechanics survive such a transition? What about its visual identity? Are there very D&D adjacent (OSR, OGL) games that manage it while still "being" D&D?

 

[Remathilis]

Short answer: you can't.

The closest you could do would be something like Monte Cooks Arcana series; where you create a whole new series of classes and species, a different magic system, and a whole new bestiary and focus it on a single setting with lots of internal consistency. But then you're just creating yet another d20 Fantasy Heartbreaker like so many that have come before. You eventually get to the Ship of Theseus issue where you have removed so much of the core components, you've made a totally different game.

 

[TwoSix]

If we define "the game of D&D" very loosely as "a game of avatar progression in a fantasy world, with defined progression tracks (classes and levels) and abilities acquired from a broad list of exceptions (spells and magic items)", then I guess it's possible.

But what flavor of fantasy would feel like "definitely not D&D", while still adhering to the general concepts of progression fantasy that the D&D engine would require?

My first thought is something with all completely nonhuman options.

 

[Reynard]

If we define "the game of D&D" very loosely as "a game of avatar progression in a fantasy world, with defined progression tracks (classes and levels) and abilities acquired from a broad list of exceptions (spells and magic items)", then I guess it's possible.

I am not sure why we would define it that way, rather than as a game with D&D in the name or one derived directly from such game.

But what flavor of fantasy would feel like "definitely not D&D", while still adhering to the general concepts of progression fantasy that the D&D engine would require?

To be clear, it does not have to be something "new" -- it could be, say, something that adhered much more closely to actual European myth and folklore.

My first thought is something with all completely nonhuman options.

At this point, i think a metric ton of nonhuman races IS D&D fantasy.

 

[Laurefindel]

If we define "the game of D&D" very loosely as "a game of avatar progression in a fantasy world, with defined progression tracks (classes and levels) and abilities acquired from a broad list of exceptions (spells and magic items)", then I guess it's possible.

But what flavor of fantasy would feel like "definitely not D&D", while still adhering to the general concepts of progression fantasy that the D&D engine would require?

My first thought is something with all completely nonhuman options.

… or no non-human options whatsoever

 

[Reynard]

… or no non-human options whatsoever

Right. Could D&D be D&D if it adhered to, say, 12th century French Arthurian Romance Fantasy?

 

[SableWyvern]

I'm not sure how this is even a question.

There are people using various editions of D&D, and variations of it, to run all sorts fantasy that falls outside the standard vanilla D&D fantasy.

There are people using all sorts of completely non-D&D rulesets to run games in actual D&D settings, as well as innumerable variations on "vanilla" D&D type worlds.

That these things can be done is not in question, because they've been and they're continuing to be done.

 

[Reynard]

I'm not sure how this is even a question.

There are people using various editions of D&D, and variations of it, to run all sorts fantasy that falls outside the standard vanilla D&D fantasy.

There are people using all sorts of completely non-D&D rulesets to run games in actuel D&D settings, as well as innumerable variations on "vanilla" D&D type worlds.

That these things can be done is not in question, because they've been and they're continuing to be done.

What are some good examples of this?

 

[Remathilis]

Well here's a good test case: Masque of the Red Death for AD&D 2nd edition.

One race: human.
Four classes: soldier, tradesman, adept, mystic (roughly equate to the classic core four)
1890's Earth setting
Gothic horror theme/genre
Turn of the century technology (firearms, gaslights) with appropriate equipment lists
Highly restricted magic (limited lists, few spells known, long casting times)
Ravenloft rules in play (fear and horror checks, curses, Powers checks)
extremely limited magic items
Only classic Horror monsters (vampires, werewolves, ghosts, etc).

It was sold under the AD&D/Ravenloft name. But does it count as D&D?

 

[Laurefindel]

Over the decades, "D&D Fantasy" has become its own genre. The reciprocal relationship between D&D and video games has not only embedded this sub-genre, but given it relatively consistent visual tropes and mechanical implementations. The decade or so of popularity of TSR setting novels also entangled the visual language of paperback fantasy with D&D -- even when the books had little or nothing to do with D&D fantasy -- and that is to say nothing of the generation of fantasists who grew up on D&D and its influence on their work.

What I wonder is: is it possible to disentangle D&D Fantasy from the game of D&D, to do D&D in a different or new flavor of fantasy? What would it take? Could D&D's "sacred cow" mechanics survive such a transition? What about its visual identity? Are there very D&D adjacent (OSR, OGL) games that manage it while still "being" D&D?

In this context, what is D&D?

Is it a game with levels and classes or a game specifically with 20 levels and the 12-13 classes as written? Is it a game with Elves and Dwarves or a game with species, one granting resistance to charms and the other resistance to poison? Is it a game with Arcane and Divine magic or a game with two broad families of magical tradition.

Would a complete refluff while keeping the mechanics (or even each ability/feat/class feature/spell etc) intact still be D&D in this context?

Would a D&D with options unchanged but drastically reduced in number still be D&D? For example, level 2-6 only, no divine caster, and only elves, dwarves, and tiefling.

If D&D must remain intact in crunch and fluff (to a core minimum), I think D&D is indissociable from the fantasy genre it engendered (even though D&D fantasy itself is pretty broad and branching out to many subgenres of their own)