D&D General Disentangling D&D from D&D Fantasy

[tetrasodium]

I am not sure what LitRPG has to do with this. Can you clarify?

If you are thinking about those choose your own adventure books for kids, those do NOT generally have anything to do with the litrpg genre but you didn't mention any of the other genres the named litrpgs adapted to anime or the rest of my post so I'm going to assume that is the clarification you were looking for

LitRPG - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Reynard]

If you are thinking about those choose your own adventure books for kids, those do NOT generally have anything to do with the litrpg genre but you didn't mention any of the other genres the named litrpgs adapted to anime or the rest of my post so I'm going to assume that is the clarification you were looking for

LitRPG - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think we are misunderstanding each other.

The question I asked in the OP is whether the specific subgenre of D&D Fantasy (which extends far beyond just D&D now) is necessary for the game itself to "be D&D." I think some folks have made good arguments that at least strongly suggest the answer is "D&D can still be D&D without being completely dominated by D&D Fantasy tropes" with Dark Sun being a good example.

 

[Staffan]

The status quo as presented in the Eberron setting guides is not one where humans are the dominant species in any meaningful way.

The 3.5e version has humans being the biggest population in 7 out of 16 nations on Khorvaire, including all four with populations listed over 1 million (though the Eberron populations are a bit of an issue in themselves, we can probably assume the proportions of the nations are roughly correct), and no other race has a plurality in more than one Khorvaire nation. Humans managed to conquer most of the continent and then one particular human nation conquered/unified the human nations into one kingdom. 5 out of 12 dragonmarks are found on humans, though they share one with half-orcs, and no other race has more than two marks (half-elves and halflings). Cannith, a human house used to be the "first among equals" of the dragonmarked houses until the Mourning destroyed their primary HQ leading to fracturing. And the first sentence under "Humans" in the races chapter is "Humans, a relatively young race, are the dominant race of Eberron."

Humans are not as dominant on Khorvaire as they are on the Flanaess or on Faerûn, but they're definitely dominant.

 

[Reynard]

The 3.5e version has humans being the biggest population in 7 out of 16 nations on Khorvaire, including all four with populations listed over 1 million (though the Eberron populations are a bit of an issue in themselves, we can probably assume the proportions of the nations are roughly correct), and no other race has a plurality in more than one Khorvaire nation. Humans managed to conquer most of the continent and then one particular human nation conquered/unified the human nations into one kingdom. 5 out of 12 dragonmarks are found on humans, though they share one with half-orcs, and no other race has more than two marks (half-elves and halflings). Cannith, a human house used to be the "first among equals" of the dragonmarked houses until the Mourning destroyed their primary HQ leading to fracturing. And the first sentence under "Humans" in the races chapter is "Humans, a relatively young race, are the dominant race of Eberron."

Humans are not as dominant on Khorvaire as they are on the Flanaess or on Faerûn, but they're definitely dominant.

Maybe we should define "dominant."

I am saying that in Eberron, humans do not control the fate of the setting any more than any other species or peoples. They have power, but so do elves and dwarves and halflings and goblinoids and orcs and dragons.

 

[Staffan]

Maybe we should define "dominant."

I am saying that in Eberron, humans do not control the fate of the setting any more than any other species or peoples. They have power, but so do elves and dwarves and halflings and goblinoids and orcs and dragons.

But humans have the most power. Not all the power, but the most. The most significant recent event of the setting, the Last War, was a result of internal squabbles within the human royal family of Galifar that led each of the children of Jarot to make war on the others. Elves, dwarves, goblins, or halflings couldn't do anything like that.

At least on Khorvaire, which is the focus part of the setting. Other continents have their own dominant powers (dragons on Argonessen, elves on Aerenal, the Inspired on Sarlona (even though I believe the humans are the most populous, the Inspired are calling the shots, and no-one in particular on Xen'drik).

 

[Reynard]

But humans have the most power. Not all the power, but the most. The most significant recent event of the setting, the Last War, was a result of internal squabbles within the human royal family of Galifar that led each of the children of Jarot to make war on the others. Elves, dwarves, goblins, or halflings couldn't do anything like that.

At least on Khorvaire, which is the focus part of the setting. Other continents have their own dominant powers (dragons on Argonessen, elves on Aerenal, the Inspired on Sarlona (even though I believe the humans are the most populous, the Inspired are calling the shots, and no-one in particular on Xen'drik).

This is starting to sound like desperation to be right.

I bet we can ask Baker what he thinks.

 

[Laurefindel]

This is starting to sound like desperation to be right.

I bet we can ask Baker what he thinks.

@Staffan isn’t wrong though. The focus of the setting is Khorvaire, and the major power in Khorvaire was Galifar, a human-run kingdom with subjects of other nations and species, but mostly human. Then there was the Last War, which opposed human-led nations, even if they had mixed societies. Then non-human nations got involved or declared independence, but they were mostly peripherical both in importance and in geography.

Even after the war, when the power of humans is mostly broken, they remain majoritarian in population and influence in the highest number of nations and dragonmark houses.

What Eberron does have is a high number of peripherical nations that have few humans and little human influence/power/leadership, moreso than any other official settings. So while Eberron is less humano-centric than other settings, humans are still dominant in the regions Eberron focuses on, both in population and in power.

 

[SableWyvern]

I bet we can ask Baker what he thinks.

Isn't he likely to be the author of the line, "Humans, a relatively young race, are the dominant race of Eberron," that was quoted above?

 

[Reynard]

@Staffan isn’t wrong though. The focus of the setting is Khorvaire, and the major power in Khorvaire was Galifar, a human-run kingdom with subjects of other nations and species, but mostly human. Then there was the Last War, which opposed human-led nations, even if they had mixed societies. Then non-human nations got involved or declared independence, but they were mostly peripherical both in importance and in geography.

Even after the war, when the power of humans is mostly broken, they remain majoritarian in population and influence in the highest number of nations and dragonmark houses.

What Eberron does have is a high number of peripherical nations that have few humans and little human influence/power/leadership, moreso than any other official settings. So while Eberron is less humano-centric than other settings, humans are still dominant in the regions Eberron focuses on, both in population and in power.

I think this response is nonsense and is based more on a preconceived notion than what we actually see in the setting guide. It makes the mistake of starting with "humans are important" and therefore interprets the setting from that paradigm, as opposed to actually looking at what is proposed in the setting.

 

[SableWyvern]

I think this response is nonsense and is based more on a preconceived notion than what we actually see in the setting guide. It makes the mistake of starting with "humans are important" and therefore interprets the setting from that paradigm, as opposed to actually looking at what is proposed in the setting.

I know very little about Eberron, but I've seen a couple of people raising facts and direct quotes from the books that seem to support the position that humans are the dominant species.

Your counter argument amounts to ad hominems ("This is starting to sound like desperation to be right.") and cries of "Nonsense!" If you're right, you're certainly not making a case for your position.

[Edit for spelling.]