D&D General Disentangling D&D from D&D Fantasy

[Reynard]

I'd say it's possible to do fiction that's "D&D fantasy" while being disconnected from "D&D the game." The setting would have a bunch of identifiable D&D elements but with the mechanics (and the magic system in particular) being different.

I would say that I've actually done this, except - it was one of my evil clones who wrote those stories, not me! Yes, that's the ticket! Although you might say that the setting is merely "D&D inspired" rather than being an actual D&D fantasy setting.

I am explicitly not talking about doing D&D Fantasy in other RPGs, or other media. There are literally thousands of examples of that.

 

[TwoSix]

I am not sure why we would define it that way, rather than as a game with D&D in the name or one derived directly from such game.

Well, let me clarify. When you say "disentangle the D&D game from D&D Fantasy", how much of the existing game do you want to change?

To me, it's fairly clear that if you don't create completely new classes, races, and magic system, then you're still entangled with "D&D Fantasy". But maybe you disagree?

To be clear, it does not have to be something "new" -- it could be, say, something that adhered much more closely to actual European myth and folklore.

I would still see that as just "D&D with a different sheen". But different people have different ranges of what they view as "D&D-like", of course.

At this point, i think a metric ton of nonhuman races IS D&D fantasy.

I was thinking very specifically of "no humans at all", and with most of the common races not even being anthropomorphic.

 

[el-remmen]

Those people might change the skins on monsters and focus on different things, but they rarely, IME, write the D&D fantasy out of the classes and spells.

It doesn't matter how rarely it happens. You asked if it was possible and it is. It may be difficult and a lot of work, but as we (should) know, some people are totally willing and able to put the work in, even when others thinks it is not worth it.

And, as I said, it is along a spectrum and doesn't need to be binary.

 

[SableWyvern]

Those people might change the skins on monsters and focus on different things, but they rarely, IME, write the D&D fantasy out of the classes and spells.

Even if it's true they only do it rarely, it's still being done.

And we have literal examples of commercial games that removed the D&D fantasy from the classes and spells.

 

[TwoSix]

It doesn't matter how rarely it happens. You asked if it was possible and it is. It may be difficult and a lot of work, but as we (should) know, some people are totally willing and able to put the work in, even when others thinks it is not worth it.

And, as I said, it is along a spectrum and doesn't need to be binary.

I mean, I think there's a perspective difference here. We have people saying that Dark Sun and Ravenloft and Birthright are appreciably distinct from "D&D", which is not an opinion I share.

Even if they weren't published under the D&D umbrella, a game with 6 stats, fighters, wizards, elves, and dwarves who all level up by going up on adventures feels pretty much like D&D.

 

[Remathilis]

Those people might change the skins on monsters and focus on different things, but they rarely, IME, write the D&D fantasy out of the classes and spells.

Well that goes back to my Ship of Theseus issue. What's the difference between taking D&D, removing all the races but human and replacing them with Alien species, rewriting all the classes and adding several new ones, changing the magic system to a psionic system fueled by you own HP, and then setting it in far flung future with robots and starships? Did I decouple D&D rules from D&D fantasy or did I just create Star Wars d20?

 

[Willie the Duck]

What are some good examples of this?

How about the greenbound 2e splatbooks (Viking's Campaign Sourcebook, Charlemagne's Paladins Campaign Sourcebook)?

 

[Reynard]

Well, let me clarify. When you say "disentangle the D&D game from D&D Fantasy", how much of the existing game do you want to change?

To me, it's fairly clear that if you don't create completely new classes, races, and magic system, then you're still entangled with "D&D Fantasy". But maybe you disagree?

The D&D is as much built into the classes and spells as anything else. So, yes, creating new classes and a different magic system is probably necessary. That is why I don't think Dark Sun and Ravenloft count as "not D&D Fantasy" -- the player options are still clearly and strongly in the D&D Fantasy realm, even if the setting has gotten a coat of paint.

This is why the question is a valid one, IMO. In order to fully excise the D&D Fantasy, you have to eliminate and/or change some pretty central features of D&D. Can you do that and still be D&D? If the classes are Knight, Lady and Squire, is that D&D? If the magic system is limited to Alchemy, is that D&D?

Those questions are what makes it an interesting discussion.

The folks in the thread asserting "Of course. What a dumb question!" (not you) are missing the point, I think.

 

[Reynard]

How about the greenbound 2e splatbooks (Viking's Campaign Sourcebook, Charlemagne's Paladins Campaign Sourcebook)?

I don't have those on hand and I can't recall if they expected you still have D&D clerics, rangers and magic-users (and spells) pretty much per the PHB in them.

 

[Corinnguard]

Right. Could D&D be D&D if it adhered to, say, 12th century French Arthurian Romance Fantasy?

Back in 3.5e, there were two 3pp books, Relics and Rituals: Excalibur and Relics and Rituals: Olympus, which did try to make D&D settings that adhered to Arthurian folklore and Greek mythology.