D&D 5E (2014) DM imposed restrictions to the game (+)

[Crimson Longinus]

A certain level of agency, especially in how a player sets stakes and drives for their character, and in how they frame the results of resolution in the context of their character and the ongoing fiction, is certainly desirable.

The absolute agency over character mindset you appear to need to have a desired TTRPG experience is where our preferences do not align.

Sure. I did not specify what form that agency must take, but you need to have it, or it is not a game, thus it is central. I was just responding to this wild sentence here:

I’m not debating what agency means. I’m just saying the idea that it’s important and central to “roleplaying” is simply a preference masquerading as a norm.

 

[TwoSix]

So rather than explain what I missed, it's just my fault. Coolio.

Yes. You misread my post and accused me of strawmanning. I have no moral obligation to explain myself further beyond the myriad of posts I've already made today, and quite frankly no desire to do so.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I would posit that a Persuasion or Intimidation check made by a supernatural being, like a dragon, vampire, or high-level bard, is inherently supernatural in a D&D universe context, no game mechanic tag required.

You could posit that. Baselessly, but you could. It doesn't however change the fact that according to the rules those skills are not used on the PCs, so these things cannot mechnically affect them by RAW.

 

[AlViking]

Extraordinary things they’d break the rules of our reality but not the rules of DnD world’s reality, where it is blatantly obvious that such things like the square/cube law, thrust/weight ratios and other laws of physics are more guidelines than actual laws there, else a great many creatures would either crumple under their own weight or not be able to achieve flight, and a great many other things too.

Definition of supernatural: "of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural"

Therefore anything that breaks the rules of our reality is by that definition supernatural. Dragons are supernatural creatures, as are giants, ghosts and on and on.

Other things don't work exactly like the real world game but that's because of modelling simplification and gameplay considerations which would include things like HP.

 

[TwoSix]

Sure. I did not specify what form that agency must take, but you need to have it, or it is not a game, thus it is central. I was just responding to this wild sentence here:

I didn't say it wasn't central to a game, I said it wasn't central to roleplay. You can roleplay (take on a persona and express it in a shared storytelling medium) without making any decisions that would require "agency".

Basically, you continue to assert, actively and passively, that playing out the effects of a resolution check as your character isn't actually "roleplaying" because as a player, you didn't make your own decision, based on your predetermined character model.

I can't agree with that.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

In any case, I don't really care how exactly the mental influence is labelled. If it is the fiction supposed to be such, that the target loses their own volition, that it feels like they are mind controlled, then I am fine it excreting influence via the rules. Because then the player and character feelings are correspondent.

Though these effects nevertheless override agency, so in any case they should be used extremely sparingly, if at all.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I didn't say it wasn't central to a game, I said it wasn't central to roleplay. You can roleplay (take on a persona and express it in a shared storytelling medium) without making any decisions that would require "agency".

Basically, you continue to assert, actively and passively, that playing out the effects of a resolution check as your character isn't actually "roleplaying" because as a player, you didn't make your own decision, based on your predetermined character model.

I can't agree with that.

It is not roleplayng. It is just acting. Rules gave you the script, you follow it.

 

[AlViking]

Yes. You misread my post and accused me of strawmanning. I have no moral obligation to explain myself further beyond the myriad of posts I've already made today, and quite frankly no desire to do so.

I'm not sure how I misread the bolded

Yes, but my pushback would be you, as a player, are responsible for reading the game rules and not making a mental heuristic that violates those rules.

If your mental model is "My 2nd level wizard always responds to violence with a disintegration spell", than you built a bad mental model, because that violates D&D rules.

When I say that I would not consider that a valid example of a mental model. If you want to drop it that's fine.

 

[TwoSix]

When I say that I would not consider that a valid example of a mental model. If you want to drop it that's fine.

Of course it's not a valid model. That was the point.

The point is "If you make a model that violates the game rules, it's invalid; the rules win over the model. That's equally true for a wizard casting high-level spells in D&D, and a character with absolute control over their mindset in Vampire or Pendragon."

If you want to assert that your model prevents you from losing control in those games, you'd be outside the game rules, and it's as egregiously obvious as a wizard casting 6th level spells at 2nd level.

It's not a design flaw that those games restrict player agency over decision making, it's the entire point of the ruleset.

 

[TwoSix]

It is not roleplayng. It is just acting. Rules gave you the script, you follow it.

Then we're just back down to semantics.