D&D 5E (2014) DM imposed restrictions to the game (+)

[Remathilis]

Okay.

What happens, then, if it happens to be true that most people are not good at, or even genuinely incapable of or unwilling to be, consistently and appropriately expressing that fear?

I dunno. That get güd?

Your asking for some system that will police bad players. IMHO those systems end up being used by bad DMs to torment there players in the name of "fun". You can't trust that a cleric will pay attention to their God's tenants, so there must be rules to punish them if they step out of line. You can't trust a player will play his alignment, so we must put horrendous penalties for actions that do not aherre to them. You cannot trust players will react appropriately to a given stimulus, so you must force the appropriate reaction on them. Pretty soon, the Viking hat DM has constructed a gossamer cage where the players know at any time that the DM can come slamming down on them for wrong think, sinners in the hands of any angry God style.

Or, since I know folks are so eager to trot this out against anything they dislike: "just trust the player to do it right" is a white-room argument. It doesn't reliably hold up in actual, observed practice. Special cases and minority proportions, sure, but not the general case.

Expand that thought out an inch further. You cannot reliably assume a player is capable of getting in the mindset of another non-human species. Therefore such species should not be offered. The choice should be removed from the player lest the choice be abused by players unwilling or unable to comprehend it.

Or we can relax and learn to love the bomb.

I'm too old to worry about the art and craft of my game. I want to have fun. I want to be entertained. I want to laugh and to cry. I want to play a noble knight, a cunning rogue, an arrogant elf, and not worry about the DM sabotaging my idea for "the drama". I played with a DM who, if he didn't like your character he would sabotage them. And it took a lot of years (and several different DMs) to realize I didn't have to put up with DM manipulation forcing me to play characters I didn't want to play or characters I did and to play to play them in ways I didn't want to play them.

I'll take that freedom over a hundred bad players ignoring fear checks. All day. Every day.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Yup. Every character gets to react the same.

No.
You determine if your character flees, cowers or clenches their weapon tighter while battling the irrepressible fear emanating from a lich....
You determine how deeply your character succumbs to the overpowering charm of a succubus and what their actions are...

The dice sets the minimum, you as a roleplayer get to bring that to life drawing from the character's background, the character's experience and their personality traits...

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I dunno. That get güd?

Your asking for some system that will police bad players. IMHO those systems end up being used by bad DMs to torment there players in the name of "fun". You can't trust that a cleric will pay attention to their God's tenants, so there must be rules to punish them if they step out of line. You can't trust a player will play his alignment, so we must put horrendous penalties for actions that do not aherre to them. You cannot trust players will react appropriately to a given stimulus, so you must force the appropriate reaction on them. Pretty soon, the Viking hat DM has constructed a gossamer cage where the players know at any time that the DM can come slamming down on them for wrong think, sinners in the hands of any angry God style.


Expand that thought out an inch further. You cannot reliably assume a player is capable of getting in the mindset of another non-human species. Therefore such species should not be offered. The choice should be removed from the player lest the choice be abused by players unwilling or unable to comprehend it.

Or we can relax and learn to love the bomb.

I'm too old to worry about the art and craft of my game. I want to have fun. I want to be entertained. I want to laugh and to cry. I want to play a noble knight, a cunning rogue, an arrogant elf, and not worry about the DM sabotaging my idea for "the drama". I played with a DM who, if he didn't like your character he would sabotage them. And it took a lot of years (and several different DMs) to realize I didn't have to put up with DM manipulation forcing me to play characters I didn't want to play or characters I did and to play to play them in ways I didn't want to play them.

I'll take that freedom over a hundred bad players ignoring fear checks. All day. Every day.

And yet you exclude even the possibility that someone else would want to have fun, be entertained, laugh and cry, play a noble knight, a cunning rogue, etc., etc., and would need a game that is actually designed well to do that. That an imbalanced, slapdash, self-contradictory game that permits ridiculousness like "I have 6 Int, 6 Wis, 6 Cha, but I'm the smartest, wisest, most charming person in the world."

I guess I appreciate you being honest about what you want and how you see other people that play the game. Can't say much more than that though.

 

[Mecheon]

Man, don't let the OSR crowd hear you talk like that! They're liable to form a mob, all the while reminding you that D&D requires smart play and challenges the player, not the character.

Won't be the first time me and the OSR crowd butt heads, won't be the last. Their 'smart play' and 'challenge the player' is everyone's else's 'metagamer bringing OOC into IC'

OSR crowd would not survive MUSH RPs or the current Skyrim RP trend on Twitch, can tell you that one

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No.
You determine if your character flees, cowers or clenches their weapon tighter while battling the irrepressible fear emanating from a lich....
You determine how deeply your character succumbs to the overpowering charm of a succubus and what their actions are...

The dice sets the minimum, you as a roleplayer get to bring that to life drawing from the character's background, the character's experience and their personality traits...

The thing I find hilarious is that people apparently don't care about being told in no uncertain terms that their character is in a particular emotional state--given "Frightened" and such have been conditions in D&D for ages upon ages--but other emotional or behavioral states? Totally unacceptable.

Can't wait to see folks use the exact same arguments once made in defense of slimes going prone, that were so eagerly rejected.

 

[GrimCo]

Man, don't let the OSR crowd hear you talk like that! They're liable to form a mob, all the while reminding you that D&D requires smart play and challenges the player, not the character.

Well, good thing D&D philosophy in last 26 years has moved away from OSR philosophy. Challenge the character, not the player has started in late 2ed ad&d and has endured till today.

But I guess you could opt for rolling. "Roll a DC 14 Int check to solve the Sphinx's riddle. Roll a DC 15 perception to find secret door in the fireplace. Roll a DC 12 persuasion to convince the merchant to lower his price 10%. The player doesn't even need to hear the riddle, search the room, or attempt to haggle!

Personally, in both my regular 5e and Pf1 group, play that way. There are times when we just want throw some dices and have fun without thinking too much. That's specially true for our work day late afternoon sessions. While it's more immersive if people at least try to role play, sometimes players are tired, mentally and creatively drained. That's when character's abilities come into play. My player mind is blanking, but my Int 18 character with good skill modifier is not, so instead of me as a player solving puzzle, i use characters abilities ( rolling) to solve it.

 

[AnotherGuy]

The thing I find hilarious is that people apparently don't care about being told in no uncertain terms that their character is in a particular emotional state--given "Frightened" and such have been conditions in D&D for ages upon ages--but other emotional or behavioral states? Totally unacceptable.

Can't wait to see folks use the exact same arguments once made in defense of slimes going prone, that were so eagerly rejected.

Certain roleplayers are not going to be as generous in their roleplaying as @Remathilis - they may play a rather limited relatable character, with at all times being maximally efficient. That is why I prefer the die to level the playing field amongst different roleplayers.
It sets the minimum mechanicar bar for both gamists/metagamists in a language they understand as well as provide a base for your more roleplaying-focussed players.

 

[Remathilis]

And yet you exclude even the possibility that someone else would want to have fun, be entertained, laugh and cry, play a noble knight, a cunning rogue, etc., etc., and would need a game that is actually designed well to do that. That an imbalanced, slapdash, self-contradictory game that permits ridiculousness like "I have 6 Int, 6 Wis, 6 Cha, but I'm the smartest, wisest, most charming person in the world."

Honestly? It's a primal flaw in the game having mental stats in the first place. One of my favorite systems of old was West End Games d6 system (Star Wars) it has six major stats, but they aren't a measure of your mental capacity, but I knowledge and aptitude: Dexterity, Knowledge, Mechanical, Perception, Strength and Technical. It's not perfect, (Mech and Tech felt a little overlapping) but nothing measures a character's innate social or even intellectual capacity. But D&D was determined to measure a character's mental, emotional and social capacity and hard code them, so it is what it is.

I guess I appreciate you being honest about what you want and how you see other people that play the game. Can't say much more than that though.

I hate to bring up trauma as an excuse, but it really does explain where a lot of my worldview comes from. I probably would have given up on the game if better DMs hadn't come along and shown me you can do better than cowtow to an abusive DM. I've never wanted to surrender that freedom again.

 

[Remathilis]

No.
You determine if your character flees, cowers or clenches their weapon tighter while battling the irrepressible fear emanating from a lich....
You determine how deeply your character succumbs to the overpowering charm of a succubus and what their actions are...

The dice sets the minimum, you as a roleplayer get to bring that to life drawing from the character's background, the character's experience and their personality traits...

I... Actually think we are arguing for the same thing. You impose a condition, I get to react with my character in a way that is within the boundaries of the condition. What I've been arguing about is when the game forces a specific action or specific thought on me.

If my PC is frightened. I get to take my action within the boundaries of the frightened condition. If my Character is charmed, he still is himself, he just now views the charmer in a different light. I react poorly when the dice (or DM) tells me what my action will be. You WILL run screaming though the dungeon, trigging every trap and alerting every monster, because the dice say you do. You will backstab your best friend because the bard asked you nicely enough. You will give your money to the con man because you believe he is 100% honest. You will punch the ogre because you are so mad you forget you're a 4 ft tall gnome with an 8 strength and you ain't heard no bell yet!

I've never once advocated a character can role play out of a game mechanic. You can't use "I'm brave" to negative a cause fear spell or a dragons aura. You can argue that rather than run away screaming, you cautiously fall back, allow others the time to escape and then look for a way to retreat. The latter preserves the character as brave but faltering, the former makes him a coward who abandoned his friends to save his own skin. I'd like the choice in which one my character is, thank you very much.

 

[SkidAce]

No.
You determine if your character flees, cowers or clenches their weapon tighter while battling the irrepressible fear emanating from a lich....
You determine how deeply your character succumbs to the overpowering charm of a succubus and what their actions are...

The dice sets the minimum, you as a roleplayer get to bring that to life drawing from the character's background, the character's experience and their personality traits...

Yup, in a specific situation, one player might describe the PC as pissing their pants and fleeing with a gibbering wail, while another might describe reluctant withdrawal with internal struggle and a desire to overcome.