D&D 5E (2014) DM imposed restrictions to the game (+)

[tetrasodium]

Id say that the third bullet point in 740 is a bit off the mark in meaningful ways because the sticking point is not "dictating specific reactions", thw idea that being affected by something means that the gm of dictating specific reactions seems to be one that is mostly (if not entirely) a fabrication to justify players empowering themselves through the option of straight up choosing to nosell those hypothetical forces imposed by the game world.

The sticking point is more if the PC's actions can completely disregard it vrs if those actions need to respect that hypothetical force unless the player makes a case to the gm why their PC should be able to ignore & nosell it or why their PC should be able to treat it as being affected by something wildly different

 

[AlViking]

When designing an adventure, if I decide to throw in a chamber that's so eeeeevil that anyone non-evil has to save on entering the space, and those who fail feel so uneasy they have to leave the room and cannot re-enter, I'm not going to clear it with anyone. It'll just be there, as one challenge among many that they have to find a way to overcome.

There are supernatural and spell effects that can be tied to a specific location. In 5e for example there's a hallow spell that can cause fear, a forbiddance spell that can damage. I've done similar things now and then to a cursed location.

But that's not what some people are talking about. They're saying that you should make a saving throw because a totally normal non-lethal spiders comes out of the wall. If you don't react to that by your character being terrified you need to justify it somehow by some extreme measure like being a drow from the underdark. If I had a house rule where people could identify phobias (and I have vague recollections of phobias - maybe Skills & Powers - from long ago) that gave a benefit and the person had a phobia of spiders then I would expect people to react. For that matter I've had plenty of players give themselves something like this including a spider phobia, I just left it up to the player how their character would react.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

@tetrasodium

The player knows all the relevant details, as they know their own character, and the GM should be telling them the rest. Like if the spider swarm is an ill omen by which Lolth warns her faithful of grave danger, and a character is a Lolth follower, the GM should tell them that. And then it is up to the player to decide how their character reacts. Perhaps they are freaked out, because they know this means serious danger, or perhaps they're emboldened, as they know their goddess is watching over them.

 

[CreamCloud0]

@tetrasodium

The player knows all the relevant details, as they know their own character, and the GM should be telling them the rest. Like the spider swarm is an ill omen by which Lolth warns her faithful of grave danger, and a character is a Lolth follower, the GM should tell them that. And then it is up to the player to decide how their character reacts. Perhaps they are freaked out, because they know this means serious danger, or perhaps they're emboldened, as they know their goddess is watching over them.

Right, because us psychically knowing the cause and context of every event we encounter is something that happens in reality.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Right, because us psychically knowing the cause and context of every event we encounter is something that happens in reality.

If the character does not know something, then they cannot react to it in the first place! The characters react to what they perceive and know, and the GM should be telling them what that is.

 

[AlViking]

Funny thing is

Right, because us psychically knowing the cause and context of every event we encounter is something that happens in reality.

Adventurers face death on a regular basis. Why would they be scared of totally mundane spiders? I can see an instant reaction similar to jerking your hand away from a stove that has no in-game impact but after that? I just don't see it.

There are of course spells or supernatural effects that can influence someone - everything from a Beholder's fear ray to spells I mentioned above to supernatural curses or effects that I make up as a DM. But "Eek spiders icky!" is not going to do it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

If the character does not know something, then they cannot react to it in the first place! The characters react to what they perceive and know, and the GM should be telling them what that is.

Yes, They should be told what they can perceive and would know, even if a swarm of spiders is a classic form for lolth’s omens to take and the drow knows that, but it might just be an ordinary swarm of spiders, fleeing from an unknown cause, it doesn’t come with a flashing neon sign saying ‘omen from lolth’ they’ll have to come to that conclusion themselves and even if they do I’m not going to confirm or deny if that’s the correct conclusion in this specific occasion.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes, They should be told what they can perceive and would know, even if a swarm of spiders is a classic form for lolth’s omens to take and the drow knows that, but it might just be an ordinary swarm of spiders, fleeing from an unknown cause, it doesn’t come with a flashing neon sign saying ‘omen from lolth’ they’ll have to come to that conclusion themselves and even if they do I’m not going to confirm or deny if that’s the correct conclusion in this specific occasion.

Right. But the character does not know whether it it Lolth's sign or random spiders either. So they'll react the same. The GM just tells them that they see spiders and what significance that has in their culture. The rest is on the player.

Seriously, this thread is just crazy. It feels like I am explaining basic things to people who have never played or ran a RPG before.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Right. But the character does not know whether it it Lolth's sign or random spiders either. So they'll react the same. The GM just tells them that they see spiders and what significance that has in their culture. The rest is on the player.

Seriously, this thread is just crazy. It feels like I am explaining basic things to people who have never played or ran a RPG before.

I agree with everything in the first paragraph and that’s basically what I also said but some of your earlier posts really make it sound like the players are fully entitled to become divinely enlightened about every single thing there is to potentially know about the spiders and their true nature from the moment they become aware of them.
Edit: so can you see why that might perhaps generate some pushback on the idea of the players ‘knowing everything’

 

[Remathilis]

I agree with everything in the first paragraph and that’s basically what I also said but some of your earlier posts really make it sound like the players are fully entitled to become divinely enlightened about every single thing there is to potentially know about the spiders and their true nature from the moment they become aware of them.

You're reading it that way because you're trying to poke holes in his argument that the player should not automatically acquiesce to the DM telling him a large swarm of spiders is scary without needing to explain why or how.