Do they stack?

[DarkLord Of DForce]

I have a question about push. If you have:

Hammering Iron (feat)
Knockback Weapon (hammer)
Hammer Of Judgement (Paragon Path)
- Avalanche Action
Thunder Hammer (power)

Does the + to push effects all stack? Under 4e, it seems like most things don't stack, you take the highest number and use it. Other times though, things do stack.

So with a Knockback Weapon (+3 to all push effect powers), and Avalanche Action (+6 int mod to push after action point), and Thunder Hammer, (push int mod+ 6 +1) would you push a hit target 10 or 16 squares? Or some other number?

In the case of an OA, if I hit, would I push the target 1 (hammering iron - +1 push to OAs) or 4 squares (Hammering Iron +1 plus Knockback weapon +3)?

Thanks gang - just want to make sure I"m using all this correctly.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hammering Iron

Benefit: Whenever you hit a target with an opportunity attack using a hammer, you can also push that target 1 square.

Knockback weapon
When you push a target with a weapon power using this weapon, you push the target 1 additional squares.

Avalanche Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to make an attack and that attack hits, you push each target you hit with that attack a number of squares equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Thunder Hammer
Hit: 2[W] + Wisdom modifier thunder damage, and you either knock the target prone or push it 2 squares.
Weapon: If you are wielding a hammer, the number of squares you can push the target equals 1 + your Intelligence modifier.

Well, looking at all of these... This is basically one of the great unresolved debates of 4e rules. 4e actually doesn't say anywhere anything about 'stacking' except with respect to bonuses. So we don't know what things might stack or not stack in (many) other situations. We also don't know for instance if when a feat effect like Hammering Iron causes a push effect is that an effect of the power and thus eligible for the Knockback Weapon bonus to the push effect. Likewise we don't know if the push effect of Avalanche Action should stack or not with other push effects, nor whether on its own IT would qualify you for Knockback Weapon bonus.

Thunder Hammer itself isn't really problematic, you definitely trigger the Knockback bonus there, but again stacking with the other two bonuses we don't know about.

You could argue this basically 2 ways in general. Either these things do NOT stack, or they do stack, and you could argue either that feat and 'feature' based effects are or are not essentially tacked onto the power they associate with. I'm not going to calculate all the permutations here. Suffice it to say that the DM will have to decide on those two points (and they each have their merits).

In general though if I'm going to rule on things like this I'm going to give it to the player. That's just generally the better approach. The DM should be forewarned however that there are a couple of oddball corner cases where you run into something ridiculous (I recall there is one case where a character could gain a rather large circumstantial defense bonus, trivialize the situation to basically 'every melee weapon attack', etc and the same combo with an opposite ruling was almost equally bad).

Luckily that kind of thing comes up rarely. This case is definitely DM's call though.

 

[Dross]

Personally I'd go down the pedantic route and say that most of these give a defined number of squares pushed so they don't stack. I wouldn't claim it as totally RAW though (it MIGHT be RAI but there really no indication to that other that the bonuses not stacking).

Looking at it from a PC being on the receiving end of all this, I'm not sure that I like the possibility of pushing them 7 squares (with only a +2 INT & using a hammer).

 

[On Puget Sound]

Some of these cannot be done in the same action, so we can dodge the question without really answering it. Hammering Iron can only be an OA (not during your turn), and Avalanche Action can only be on an action point, which must be during your turn. Thunder Hammer also can't be an OA.

Knockback weapon stacks with any of the above, so to me the only real question is Avalanche Action + Thunder Hammer. Since this will happen at most once per 1-2 encounters, and uses up two encounter push powers to get one really big push power, I don't see it as unbalancing and in fact is rather cool. I would allow it. This does not answer your question with RAW; to me that is still totally ambiguous.

 

[S'mon]

Avalanche Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to make an attack and that attack hits, you push each target you hit with that attack a number of squares equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Thunder Hammer
Hit: 2[W] + Wisdom modifier thunder damage, and you either knock the target prone or push it 2 squares.
Weapon: If you are wielding a hammer, the number of squares you can push the target equals 1 + your Intelligence modifier.

I don't see any basis for stacking these, both give listed defined amounts of push, so they overlap and the larger figure applies.

If you had multiple 'bonus to push' effects, then as there is no rule against stacking push bonuses, I would give it to the player and let them stack.

 

[DracoSuave]

Stacking is something that happens with bonuses and penalties.

Abilities that modify pushes are not bonuses. They're simply effects that are triggered by the push, aka 'When you push an opponent, you may push them x additional squares.' So yes, they 'stack', just luke multiple instances of additional damage 'stack'.

But let's pretend for a moment these are bonuses, cause that seems to be where you guys are going with this.

NONE of them are named bonuses and nontyped bonuses always stack. So if you're treating them like bonuses, they stack just like bonuses.

The way you reconcile it is like this: As distinct events, they can have collateral effects that add up, but are not combined into on effect. As an example of this principle, if I hit you for twenty damage, and then hit you for twenty more damage with a different effect, you've suffered a total of forty damage. But, that damage isn't 'stacking' and it sure as hell doesn't 'overlap.' They are distinct incidents, and are unrelated.

So if I push you three squares, then push you again three squares, you
may have been pushed six squares total, but those pushes didn't 'add up' or 'stack' or 'overlap' or anything... they're two seperate pushes that have nothing to do with each other, other than they may have resulted from the same attack. One could have been part of the effect of that attack, another could have been triggered by the attack hitting, and a third could be triggered by the effect of the attack itself. Or, two could have been triggered by the effect of the attack, and a third triggered by dealing damage. Or whatever. One attack can trigger multiple results.

Avalanche Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to make an attack and that attack hits, you push each target you hit with that attack a number of squares equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Thunder Hammer
Hit: 2[W] + Wisdom modifier thunder damage, and you either knock the target prone or push it 2 squares.
Weapon: If you are wielding a hammer, the number of squares you can push the target equals 1 + your Intelligence modifier.

I don't see any basis for stacking these, both give listed defined amounts of push, so they overlap and the larger figure applies.

If you had multiple 'bonus to push' effects, then as there is no rule against stacking push bonuses, I would give it to the player and let them stack.

You have two seperate effects here. One is the effect granted by Avalanche Action, and the other is the effect as part of the Hit text on Thunder Hammer. You resolve Thunder Hammer's hit, and then because you hit, you trigger the feat as normal.

The pushes don't 'stack' or 'overlap'... they're two seperate effects and two seperate events. A dwarf, for instance, would reduce the Thunder Hammer push by one square, and then the Avalanche Action push by one square, because they are seperate effects.


TL;DR: If the concept of seperate effects being additive confuses you, stop using the word 'stack' and 'overlap' to describe things that are not bonuses. Using them forces you to think of them as combining into one thing, when they are not at all combining.

 

[S'mon]

Nice lawyering there Dracosuave. I'd let a PC knock a target prone with Thunder Hammer and push them with Avalanche Action at the same time, if that helps.

Counter-lawyering: They can't be 2 separate events since they both trigger off the same instance of a hit - they are simultaneous. An event that lets you push X squares AND THEN push y squares afterwards "stacks", but what we have here is "Push X" plus "Push Y" AT THE SAME TIME.

 

[DracoSuave]

Nice lawyering there Dracosuave. I'd let a PC knock a target prone with Thunder Hammer and push them with Avalanche Action at the same time, if that helps.

Counter-lawyering: They can't be 2 separate events since they both trigger off the same instance of a hit - they are simultaneous. An event that lets you push X squares AND THEN push y squares afterwards "stacks", but what we have here is "Push X" plus "Push Y" AT THE SAME TIME.

1) Two events can trigger off of the same event at the same time.

2) What is the second triggered event? The Hit: line of a power is not a triggered event, it's as much a part of the resolution of the power as the actual roll to hit itself.

3) It's no different then if a rogue scores a critical hit with an attack he has combat advantage for, while wielding a magical weapon. Both the Sneak Attack, and the Critical property of the weapon do the same thing, additional damage, and both of them apply at the same time to the same event. They do not 'stack' but are additional damage. They add up just fine.

Where in any of the rules does it indicate that only one triggered effect can result from a single effect? Nowhere. So, the general rules in this instance apply; you push because of the attack's hit effect, then you push because you spent the action point and hit. Nothing says you do not, so you must apply the rules.


Lastly, this is a forced movement effect that requires action points and limited use powers to use. Not exactly gamebreaking.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

3) It's no different then if a rogue scores a critical hit with an attack he has combat advantage for, while wielding a magical weapon. Both the Sneak Attack, and the Critical property of the weapon do the same thing, additional damage, and both of them apply at the same time to the same event. They do not 'stack' but are additional damage. They add up just fine.

There is a specific rule on bonus damage though.

In the case of 2 effects which both say 'you push the target 3 squares' for instance you can just as easily reason that a single push of 3 squares fulfills both effects. I'm not saying I exactly advocate that interpretation, but it is one possible interpretation.

Where in any of the rules does it indicate that only one triggered effect can result from a single effect? Nowhere. So, the general rules in this instance apply; you push because of the attack's hit effect, then you push because you spent the action point and hit. Nothing says you do not, so you must apply the rules.

Except it isn't an 'and then', it is step 5 of the attack resolution sequence, both effects take place at the same time from the same starting condition. Nothing in the rules ever indicates or even hints that there is an ordering to these effects at all. Nor does anything indicate that 2 smaller effects add up to a larger one, bonus damage being a specific exception. In fact there are other specific rules that require some effects to 'overlap' (IE stun effects for instance, where the longer lasting effect prevails).

Again, I'm not especially advocating against your interpretation, it is probably the most reasonable one overall.

Lastly, this is a forced movement effect that requires action points and limited use powers to use. Not exactly gamebreaking.

Exactly.

 

[Knowledge Checks]

Lastly, this is a forced movement effect that requires action points and limited use powers to use. Not exactly gamebreaking.

While the OP's setup may not be gamebreaking, there are other instances that significantly change the balance of play.

Polearm Gamble + Polearm Momentum + Knock-Back Swing + Rushing Cleats.

The net effect is that any time a nonadjacent enemy moves adjacent to you, you get an OA (Polearm Gamble). Regardless of whether you hit or miss, the enemy is pushed 1 square from Knock-Back Swing plus 1 additional square from Rushing Cleats. You've now pushed an enemy 2 squares with a polearm which triggers Polearm Momentume, knocking the enemy prone.

So anytime someone approaches you, you get to push them 2 squares and knock them prone before they get to attack (stopping charges as well). Of course your DM can give everyone reach weapons and have them stand 1 square away, but through 3 feats, 1 mundane weapon and 1 magic item you've fundamentally change the nature of personal combat for your character (no one gets to stand next to you unless they teleport there).

It's not a game breaking example of course, but rather an example of how a lot of things in the game interact with other things in ways that probably weren't intended.