AD&D 2E Do you consider the Handbooks canon?

Do you consider the complete handbooks as canon

  • Yep

    Votes: 18 30.5%
  • Nope

    Votes: 24 40.7%
  • don't care

    Votes: 10 16.9%
  • other

    Votes: 7 11.9%

Which is weird this was a new thing, because Tim Kask is on record saying that's how it was supposed to be from day 1--thief skills were only for those tasks where it would be unlikely for a "normal" person to have a chance of succeeding at it.
I also brought up this along with other things and got sandblasted to kingdom come on these forums because apparently, no one believes the words of those who were playing the game back then.

Different ways of handling the thief skills, but there was an overall idea towards them.

Kask is right on the money.

I'd say more, but I think there are those who would rather write history, then listen to what it was actually like.
 

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You got questioned and doubted because you firmly asserted some things which were directly contradictory to the text of the 1975 rules. And others which seemed to be retroactively-applied concepts from later editions. I would respectfully suggest that it's more accurate to say some folks would rather read history, and trust the evidence of written text over fallible and mutable human memory five decades later. Memories and stories of the past can be great, and CAN provide useful insight, but they're not always accurate, or descriptive of anything but that individual's own table practices, rather than the author's intent.

We've discussed this, and I've talked with and listened to Tim (and Darrold Wagner, the original Thief author) at some length. I remember a session of Tim's I played in at TotalCon a decade or so ago when he was extolling the virtues of the novel-to-him idea of using individual d10s for initiative instead of d6s (like 2E had made standard decades before, but he had been out of the loop on D&D rules). Tim was a wonderful guy and a key person at TSR in the early days, but his recollection 40+ years later is not an airtight basis for an Argument from Authority. (He may have also been recalling how he functionally "fixed" the written Thief rules at his tables after the fact, by deliberately choosing to not use the rules as written/percentages given in many cases).

And anyway, "thief skills were only for those tasks where it would be unlikely for a "normal" person to have a chance of succeeding at it" applies to most of the things Thieves are expected to do. There was no "Find Traps" skill until 1978, so we can infer that everyone was supposed to just to describe searches before that. Climbing in general when there's a rope or plentiful handholds? Sure, makes sense anyone can do it. Climbing "nearly sheer surfaces", as Greyhawk defined being a Thief ability in 1975, easy for a referee to say that's NOT a thing a normal person has a chance of success at. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Oh for goodness sake. Go back and re-read the thread at long last. You will find that you did not write what you thought you wrote and people were reacting rationally to the actual text put down. No one else here is going to carry this vendetta across threads, nor carry your self-declared-victimhood water for you.
Which is weird this was a new thing, because Tim Kask is on record saying that's how it was supposed to be from day 1--thief skills were only for those tasks where it would be unlikely for a "normal" person to have a chance of succeeding at it.
I mean, it is unfortunate to be sure. Weird, I'm not so sure on. It seems almost the main story for early D&D that the initial release was lightly botched (in terms of editing, communication, etc.) and bits and bobs of nuance intended from the get-go didn't faithfully and uniformly get communicated out to the wider audience. That seems almost par for the course.
 


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