D&D General Does Beacon of Hope maximize the damage from Vampiric Touch?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I say we go full Air Bud. It clearly makes Vampiric Touch auto hit and auto crit, because anything else isn't maximizing. Show me where the rules say it doesnt!

 

[AlViking]

Totally agree. I don’t find it confusing either (even though we come to opposite conclusions). I also agree that ultimately it’s the DM’s responsibility to make the call and I’d be fine playing it both ways with two different DMs (or even the same DM who changes their mind from one session to the next …).



That’s interesting. I had not come across that statement. It certainly feels like some of the SA answers were not thought through very deeply, or even formulated clearly in many cases…

In any case, given the official guidance that any 2014 rule is fair game unless it’s been reprinted, I consider that Sage Advices are by and large all obsolete already, except in the few cases where they pertain to non-reprinted 2014 content (and those are diminishing every time a new book gets released).

I think they admitted once that some of the answers were given late at night when they were coming home from the bar.

 

[Silam]

I say we go full Air Bud. It clearly makes Vampiric Touch auto hit and auto crit, because anything else isn't maximizing. Show me where the rules say it doesnt!

It would be very interesting to play a build around this concept at a table where the DM goes "full Air Bud" as you say

To me, the key part of Vamp Touch does not imply that Bacon guarantees a hit and a crit:

On a hit, the target takes 3d6 Necrotic damage, and you regain Hit Points equal to half the amount of Necrotic damage dealt.

My reading of this is: on a hit, there is healing. The corolloray is that in the absence of a hit, there is no healing.

Since Bacon affects healing, it only comes into play on a hit.

But if the DM wants to rule that simply the act of concentrating on Vamp Touch is itself a healing effect, then there could be a tenuous case made in favor of the Air Bud effect

BTW, other surprising effects of the Bacon I can think of…

- Lay on Hands, if used, must drain all available points (up to making the target fully healed). This is an example where there are no rolls involved, and yet there is a notion of "maximum possible" nonetheless.

- Arcane Vigor, as I said previously, forces you to spend 2 HDs, even if you’d rather spend only 1 (and they are both maximized, of course).

- Are healing spells forced to be maximally upcasted? That sounds a bit inconvenient, but may be true nonetheless.

Who said magic was easy to control?

 

[Seramus]

I'd rule no.

Beacon obviously does not affect the damage roll, as it is not healing.

The damage healed is simply "half the amount of Necrotic damage dealt". That is not a roll, so cannot be maximized. The maximized version of "half the amount of Necrotic damage dealt" is still "half the amount of Necrotic damage dealt". It is essentially a null effect.

This is my read as well. The maximum amount it can heal is always X, where X is half the Necrotic damage dealt each round.

That said, I see Beacon of Hope used so rarely, it would only encourage use of uncommon spells to allow such a thing (even if I would not in my own games).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

RAW is clear here: no.

Others have explained it well.
The healing is not dependend on any roll. The damage is. And then the healing is set to a fixed amount.

Again we have the same RAW reading/logic error as most of the time:
Cause and result are mixed up.

At the time where beacon of hope would come into play, damage is already done. You can't go back in time and retroactively change what happened before. Spells that want yout to do that, like the shield spell, explicitely spell it out.

If the spell said that it heals you by an amount of Xd6 and then you deal twice the amount healed as damage to a target creature, RAW would be YES.

Edit: and my party just found out that beacon of hope is a fantastic spell. The secondary effect is advantage on wisdom saves. The combination has really messed up my last few encounters.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't think it affects either healing or damage output

The healing is based on "necrotic damage dealt", not the damage rolled. It is the amount of necrotic damage the guy takes and really has nothing to do directly with the damage roll you make.

Some examples:

You use Vampiric touch on a Wraith and roll three 6s (18) the damage dealt is 0 due to immunity to necrotic and the amount you heal is 0.

You are a 9th level Aasimar Undead Warlock with Necrotic Shroud and Form of Dread active. You use Vampiric touch on a Breath Drinker and roll three 6s (18) and also add your necrotic necrotic shroud damage (4) and another die for necrotic Husk and roll another 6 on that. The total is 18+4+6=28 but the damage dealt is 56 due to Vulnerability to Necrotic damage and the amount you heal is therefore 28.

A bad guy use vampiric touch in combat against a Rogue and rolls 3 6s. The Rogue uses uncanny dodge and takes 9 damage, you heal half of that or 4 hit points.

Same example as the Rogue above but this time there is a Fighter with interception standing next to him. He uses Interception and he further reduces the damage to 0. You heal 0.

With this being the case the amount you heal is always the MAximum so BOH has no effect.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

No. It’s a frankly ridiculous attempt at rule bending. An ability that maximises healing can only maximise healing.

 

[Blue]

A strict reading is that you roll damage (which is not healing), and that gives a set healing number (half that). That set amount of healing is maximized, which is the same number.

It's like if you had a spell that healed 6 points of damage. At the point the healing happens there's no roll to maximize, and it doesn't retroactively reach back to affect the damage.

Think as if you had a spell that did 3 points of healing to several people, and you could upcast it for an additional 3 per level. Beacon of Hope wouldn't make it as if you'd used your highest level slot, that's something decided before the healing happens, just like the damage of Vampiric Touch.

Note: Above is RAW as I read it. That said, as a GM I'm my players cheerleader and I'd probably give some bonus following the spirit of the rules instead of actually following them. @aco175 mentioned giving the full amount of damage and, as a house rule, that seems reasonable to me.

 

[aco175]

Note: Above is RAW as I read it. That said, as a GM I'm my players cheerleader and I'd probably give some bonus following the spirit of the rules instead of actually following them. @aco175 mentioned giving the full amount of damage and, as a house rule, that seems reasonable to me.

Healing is cheap. I can always turn dials in the background to give them this and take it away so it is not abused.