D&D General Does D&D Really Need 20 Levels?

[Toe Knee Nose]

Eh, if there's no sign of burn marks after someone has hit with the flaming weapon, I don't see any point in being coy. It might be a different story about determining how much fire resistance, or f its full blown immunity, but that only probably matters to the spellcasters, and those are the guys with the Lore skills to figure it out.

Of course, that ignores fighter abilities to automatically know enemy resistances and weaknesses.

 

[AlViking]

Is moving between attacks a Monk-specific thing?

If you use a focus point to do step of the wind you can also disengage for no opportunity attack.

I know characters can go move-attack-move but I didn't know they could go attack-move-attack.

All characters can break up their move between attack, they'll still potentially provoke opportunity attacks.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Of course, that ignores fighter abilities to automatically know enemy resistances and weaknesses.

Well, again, I'm talking from a PF2e perspective, where that sort of thing lands in various skill rolls, not usually automatic abilities.

But again, in PF2e it usually doesn't matter; your main weapon has the runes it has and losing that die of lightning damage is not going to be make-or-break anyway. It can matter if the base damage type is resisted (say, something that ignores part of slashing) but its not like you're probably carrying a bunch of backup weapons (I'm currently playing kind of an exception there since my characters bastardsword has a rune that allows it to change shape, but that's not the standard gig since there's a limited number of runes a weapon can support).

In any case, the people with the appropriate lore skill can just tell me.

 

[AlViking]

This is a bog standard high level turn. 3 enemies. If you are never seeing complexity like this, then, sure, I can see why your turns play so much faster. Step of the Wind, btw, is automatic (no action needed) when a high level monk uses a ki point for flurry.

And, sure, if you are stripping away actions (that like wasted rolls if an opponent dies) and not allowing PC's to move between attacks, I can see why you claim that high level combat is so much simpler.

To me, my example was a bog standard turn. That wasn't even all that complex.

YES IT'S A DIFFERENT GAME THAT I WANT. Now you're getting it. I WANT NEW RULES TO STREAMLINE HIGH LEVEL PLAY.

I could quibble about some of the things you're doing (or, as I said maybe I'm missing or misunderstanding something) It doesn't really matter because it doesn't change the end result.

No matter how much you capitalize things, vague declarations don't mean anything. You created a complex character with a lot of options and now you're complaining because you have a complex character with a lot of options. You also want a completely different game that works by a different set of rules and assumptions. I don't see that as being a satisfactory option for most people.

I've told you what we do to speed up the game. If that's not applicable, it's not. If high level play takes too long for you perhaps there is no alternative that will work.

 

[SkidAce]

Optional rule: Use averages.

Beginning of combat: determine what you need to hit then average, If you have a 50% chance to hit and 2 attacks you hit once, no roll needed. Apply average damage from the attack. Describe the attack cinematically.

Each round repeat. DM does same for monsters. When it obvious who is going to win, they either retreat or are defeated.

Maybe not the best rule, but it would work. And its fast.

(I do it when the PCs fight mobs, "Bob your fighter with five attacks can kill 4 foes per round. Describe the combat"

 

[SkidAce]

Cribbed from the DMG.

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

I could quibble about some of the things you're doing (or, as I said maybe I'm missing or misunderstanding something) It doesn't really matter because it doesn't change the end result.

No matter how much you capitalize things, vague declarations don't mean anything. You created a complex character with a lot of options and now you're complaining because you have a complex character with a lot of options. You also want a completely different game that works by a different set of rules and assumptions. I don't see that as being a satisfactory option for most people.

I've told you what we do to speed up the game. If that's not applicable, it's not. If high level play takes too long for you perhaps there is no alternative that will work.

But, that's the thing. This is not a complicated character. This an Open Hand monk. That's pretty basic. A straight Battlemaster fighter could easily have just as many things to do in a single round as the monk. A caster, plus pets/summonings, can also easily have just as many actions that need resolving, again, sequentially.

And, let's not forget, the monsters are just as complicated. Again, straight from the Monster Manual - CR 16 Githyanki Dracomancer. Here's the stat block in spoilers to avoid cluttering the post:

Spoiler

Now, that's a single monster. It has 3 attacks, each dealing base + fire damage and inflicting the frightened condition. It can also Misty Step as a bonus action. That's about as simple as it gets at that level. Surprisingly, no resistances, which is nice. But, you still have to make 3 attacks, deal damage, dealing with various resistances that the PC's have, plus adding fear conditions, plus a bonus short range teleport. And that's only one critter. Typically, 16th level party is going to face this plus probably two or three more baddies, at a minimum, easily a pair of CR 8 Githyanki knights each with 3 attacks, one of which can be a telekinesis spell, plus a bonus teleport.

And this is a bare bones, no frills encounter for a 16th level party.

So, no, I'm not being "vague" at all. I've been really, really specific. Heck, I've offered solutions to the problem in this thread: I posted my Mob rules which have greatly increased the pace of encounters. I've talked about "Legendary" characters having separate Legendary mechanic like Legendary damage akin to MDC from RIFTS where high level characters don't track damage from non-legendary sources - they either just kill the baddie, or ignore damage under a certain threshold. The Threshold damage rules could be used here to speed things up. Instead of characters having 4+actions in a round, they get one or two, similar to how 4e handled things - lot's of burst and blast AOE effects to simulate having multiple attacks.

In what way am I being vague?

 

[overgeeked]

When it obvious who is going to win, they either retreat or are defeated.

I mean, depending on the edition, it’s pretty obvious very, very early. In some editions, you know who’s going to win before initiative is rolled.

 

[Lanefan]

But, that's the thing. This is not a complicated character. This an Open Hand monk. That's pretty basic. A straight Battlemaster fighter could easily have just as many things to do in a single round as the monk. A caster, plus pets/summonings, can also easily have just as many actions that need resolving, again, sequentially.

And, let's not forget, the monsters are just as complicated.

Your examples are fine. No issue there.

So, no, I'm not being "vague" at all. I've been really, really specific. Heck, I've offered solutions to the problem in this thread: I posted my Mob rules which have greatly increased the pace of encounters. I've talked about "Legendary" characters having separate Legendary mechanic like Legendary damage akin to MDC from RIFTS where high level characters don't track damage from non-legendary sources - they either just kill the baddie, or ignore damage under a certain threshold. The Threshold damage rules could be used here to speed things up. Instead of characters having 4+actions in a round, they get one or two, similar to how 4e handled things - lot's of burst and blast AOE effects to simulate having multiple attacks.

You've offered solutions, sure. My concern is that all those solutions sacrifice granularity for efficiency. Have you got any solutions that speed things up but keep the granularity in place?

Someone else (was it @AlViking ?) said they always use average damage. To me this also isn't a great solution, as damage swinginess can make a big difference if someone's dice are running hot or cold; never mind it makes things too predictable (I'm at 35 hit points and this guy's been doing 10 on every hit, I'm good for 3 more then I gotta bail out 'cause I can't get lucky on a low-damage fourth hit).

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

You've offered solutions, sure. My concern is that all those solutions sacrifice granularity for efficiency. Have you got any solutions that speed things up but keep the granularity in place?

Honestly? I don't think you can. You can't have granularity and efficiency. It just doesn't really work, because it's the granularity which is causing the problem.

I mean, AD&D didn't really suffer from this because you never got that many actions. Three, maybe four attacks per round at the outside, little or no movement in combat because melee was treated as a single "thing" and no off turn actions. So, of course this is going to run lightning fast. But, again, it's pretty much stripping away all granularity in favor of speed.

My solution is to reset the granularity somewhat. Not all the way back to 1st level. That's too much. But, reset the number of actions in high level play down to a more reasonable number. Recognize that higher level play is going to typically have far more actors within a scenario than low level play. 3rd level PCs aren't facing dozens of enemies typically. 13th level PC's can very reasonably be facing 2 dozen baddies at a time. That's one of the hallmarks of high level play. At least for me.

If we stick to 1-3 baddies, but, just use bigger baddies, my issue is, why bother? Sure, you have bigger numbers, but, at the end of the day, if your 2nd level party is squaring off with a troll and that's dangerous, and your 12th level party is squaring off with a single Iron Golem, well, there really isn't much difference there. It's pretty repetitive if we have to restrict encounters to 6 baddies or less because anything more than that takes 2 hours to resolve.

Note, and this is a very, very important disclaimer: I want an OPTIONAL RULESET for this. The core game would remain unchanged. Those who do not share my problem with slow paced play are perfectly free to ignore this OPTIONAL RULESET.