D&D General Does D&D Really Need 20 Levels?

[Thomas Shey]

Its because many want all or nothing.

I also think some people are leery of optional rules if they don't like what the optional rule does, because as players they have no control of whether optional rules are engaged. Naturally a GM can always create a houserule but there's at least a perception that official optional rules have a bit more weight on them.

 

[Lanefan]

When enemies and PCs have triple digit HP I don't find that the damage dealt per hit matters much, whether or not you hit does.

The bolded might lie at the root of many of these problems.

That, and that 5e design funnels so many effects through hit points rather than save-or-suck means there's a much greater likelihood of having to play the whole combat out (rather than having it cut short by a failed save) than in editions 3 and earlier.

And it works both ways. There's a PC in my game who has over 100 h.p. and yet he's still vulnerable because, compared to his peers, his saving throws are awful...or at least the rolls are. And this also makes combats shorter: sure they might start the fight with 7 characters in the party, but three rounds in when four of those have been held or downed, things go much faster.

 

[AlViking]

The bolded might lie at the root of many of these problems.

That, and that 5e design funnels so many effects through hit points rather than save-or-suck means there's a much greater likelihood of having to play the whole combat out (rather than having it cut short by a failed save) than in editions 3 and earlier.

And it works both ways. There's a PC in my game who has over 100 h.p. and yet he's still vulnerable because, compared to his peers, his saving throws are awful...or at least the rolls are. And this also makes combats shorter: sure they might start the fight with 7 characters in the party, but three rounds in when four of those have been held or downed, things go much faster.

It seems to me to be more scaling than actual more on a relative scale. If you used to do 15 points of damage and now you're doing 30, does it matter if the monster's HP has doubled?

Not saying it's good or bad but sometimes the increase in power is an illusion.

 

[Lanefan]

It seems to me to be more scaling than actual more on a relative scale. If you used to do 15 points of damage and now you're doing 30, does it matter if the monster's HP has doubled?

Not saying it's good or bad but sometimes the increase in power is an illusion.

Provided everything scales in synch across the spectrum, sure.

But does it, though? If you're doing 30 points damage now and the monster that used to have 15 now only has 20, or now has 45, that's not in synch (flip side is also true, if monster damage outpaces or doesn't keep up with the characters' hit point inflation).

It's not enough to scale in synch only with foes of your own general pay grade either. The scaling has to be consistent right across the board, or else the increase (or devrease) in power is more than just an illusion.

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

But, as far as I know you can shove as a monk, you aren't doing damage (unlike someone with some weapons). You're also knocking enemies prone, picking up someone when the only time you can do that is if you use your focus points to use step of the wind - even if an open hand monk gets it along with their flurry there's an issue of timing, you have one action surge to spend per short rest yet this example is typical of every round and so on. You also added in things like your slow fall as something that takes extra time which in my experience only adds a few seconds in play.

Everything you said there is wrong. I suggest you reread the monk class before arguing the finer points of how monks work.

Way of the Hand Monk deals damage + shove/remove opportunity attacks/trip on every flurry attack. Step of the Wind is automatic for high level monks if you spend a ki point on anything other than Step of the Wind and Step of the Wind at high levels allows you to bring a passenger. I added in the slow fall because it wouldn't add any movement distance and allow the character to return to the enemy after the crit.

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

And, again, it's not the fact that you have big numbers at high levels. It's the fact that events must be resolved sequentially. The Battlemaster Fighter at high level always has a d8 to burn as a Maneuver die on every turn. A BM fighter with Riposte gains a free attack when a baddie misses. A high level fighter can turn any weapon into a Sap weapon at will, meaning if the riposte hits, the next attack the baddie does is at disadvantage. Each action has effects that carry on to the next action.

What I do know is that if suggestions like mine don't work then there is very little the game could do to simplify higher level play that wouldn't change the nature of the game.

So, the mere existence of completely optional rules is a non-starter for you?

 

[AlViking]

Everything you said there is wrong. I suggest you reread the monk class before arguing the finer points of how monks work.

Way of the Hand Monk deals damage + shove/remove opportunity attacks/trip on every flurry attack. Step of the Wind is automatic for high level monks if you spend a ki point on anything other than Step of the Wind and Step of the Wind at high levels allows you to bring a passenger. I added in the slow fall because it wouldn't add any movement distance and allow the character to return to the enemy after the crit.

I'm not arguing about this anymore more. I've told you what we do, the details don't matter.

 

[AlViking]

And, again, it's not the fact that you have big numbers at high levels. It's the fact that events must be resolved sequentially. The Battlemaster Fighter at high level always has a d8 to burn as a Maneuver die on every turn. A BM fighter with Riposte gains a free attack when a baddie misses. A high level fighter can turn any weapon into a Sap weapon at will, meaning if the riposte hits, the next attack the baddie does is at disadvantage. Each action has effects that carry on to the next action.

So, the mere existence of completely optional rules is a non-starter for you?

In my opinion i don't see any way to create optional rules that would significantly speed high level play while still being D&D other than some of the streamlining we do.

If you have actual ideas feel free to share.

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

In my opinion i don't see any way to create optional rules that would significantly speed high level play while still being D&D other than some of the streamlining we do.

If you have actual ideas feel free to share.

Well, lessee, third time maybe helps.

1. Streamline high level play for PC's by removing several iterative actions. PC's are reduced down to two actions per turn. PC's deal and receive damage with low level opponents based on level vs CR difference, meaning that at some threshold, PC's automatically kill lower level opponents who simply cannot damage higher level ones.

2. Low level opponents are converted into higher level opponents through the use of some sort of Mob rules where low level opponents in small numbers are not a threat, but, in significant enough numbers, become a viable threat again. But, instead of each member having several iterative actions, the mob has one, maybe two actions per turn.

3. These and other changes would be bundled as completely optional rules.

I do think that perhaps this disagreement isn't going anywhere since this is the third or fourth time I've repeated these solutions that you seem to not bother reading or commenting on each time. You accused me of being vague, when I've been very specific. You've accused me of not knowing the rules, while demonstrating you have no actual knowledge of the rules under discussion. You keep offering solutions to a problem that I've repeatedly stated is not the problem while ignoring the actual stated problem over and over again.

 

[AlViking]

An

Well, lessee, third time maybe helps.

1. Streamline high level play for PC's by removing several iterative actions. PC's are reduced down to two actions per turn. PC's deal and receive damage with low level opponents based on level vs CR difference, meaning that at some threshold, PC's automatically kill lower level opponents who simply cannot damage higher level ones.

2. Low level opponents are converted into higher level opponents through the use of some for of Mob rules where low level opponents in small numbers are not a threat, but, in significant enough numbers, become a viable threat again. But, instead of each member having several iterative actions, the mob has one, maybe two actions per turn.

3. These and other changes would be bundled as completely optional rules.

I do think that perhaps this disagreement isn't going anywhere since this is the third or fourth time I've repeated these solutions that you seem to not bother reading or commenting on each time. You accused me of being vague, when I've been very specific. You've accused me of not knowing the rules, while demonstrating you have no actual knowledge of the rules under discussion. You keep offering solutions to a problem that I've repeatedly stated is not the problem while ignoring the actual stated problem over and over again.

I wasn't clear and what I wrote was not written correctly. I'm done with this conversation