Does performing Trip attempts every round ruin Suspension of Disbelief?

[MerricB]

We currently have a thread where the main contention is that being able to use a fighter exploit only once per day ruins a player's Suspension of Disbelief.

It is a viewpoint I sympathize with. I myself have no problems with gamist constructions, but I can well see that having a fighter that can only attempt to Trip someone once per day is, indeed, worthy of breaking Suspension of Disbelief for some players.

However, I'd just like to turn it around for the purpose of this discussion. Is a fighter who, on every round of a combat, is able to Trip someone (with a high degree of success) just as worthy of breaking your Suspension of Disbelief?

In a real combat, I assume - having not participated in them myself - that you must constantly react to what your opponent is doing. It's not a case of just performing your favourite manuever. You are constrained by the vulnerabilities your opponent presents you with. Thus, the idea of the constantly tripping fighter is as much a gamist construction as the once/day tripping fighter!

What do you think?

Cheers!

 

[TerraDave]

As long as it involves a spiked chain being used to trip multiple opponents over a wide area over and over again, I find it perfectly realistic.

 

[Timeboxer]

What do you think?

Don't confuse us with the facts, Merric. I'm onto you.

 

[frankthedm]

In a real combat, I assume - having not participated in them myself - that you must constantly react to what your opponent is doing. It's not a case of just performing your favourite manuever. You are constrained by the vulnerabilities your opponent presents you with.

Unpredicted openings, vulnerabilities and defenses are generally covered by the 1-20 variation of a D20.

If a combatant gets predictable with a maneuver, applying the "DM's friend" of -2 to hit sounds reasonable.

 

[Samuel Leming]

However, I'd just like to turn it around for the purpose of this discussion. Is a fighter who, on every round of a combat, is able to Trip someone (with a high degree of success) just as worthy of breaking your Suspension of Disbelief?

This would depend.

There are certainly bad ways to construct such rules. A fighter being able to TRY to trip whenever he thinks he needs to would not be a problems. A fighter always being able to always trip his opponent no matter what would badly snap those suspenders of disbelief.

Sam

 

[Tarkan]

What is suspension of belief?

 

[Rechan]

Unpredicted openings, vulnerabilities and defenses are generally covered by the 1-20 variation of a D20.

If a combatant gets predictable with a maneuver, applying the "DM's friend" of -2 to hit sounds reasonable.

In general, anyone who's doing trips every round has a build that makes their trip attempts boss.

Let me show you.

From the SRD

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier).

So a plain Str vs Str or Dex.

Imp Trip grants +4 to this.

Any magical items that increase your Str are going to help. And you're likely going to be doing this against an opponent who has a weaker dex or str than you.

So at best, he's only slightly less likely to make the trip. You'll probably eat up the +2 a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power provide.

Disarming is worse; It's an attack roll with BAB/weapon focus/etc rolled in; Imp Disarm grants +4, and flails/chains/a few other weapons grant +2 to the Disarm attempt, so your -2 is eaten by the weapon's bonus.

 

[Rechan]

I'd point out that fighters are tripping a lot more frequently than you think.

Any attack that says 'Enemy is knocked prone' = trip.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

I have trip, sunder, and disarm as at-will abilities anyone can use. I may add a 5/6 recharge on to them to prevent people from trying to abuse them, but still being able to have them available to spice up combat a little.

 

[pawsplay]

In all honesty, realistic fights are kind of goonish. In my experience in a number of boffer combat tournaments and watching several martial arts competitions:

- Someone manages to disarm themselves practically every tenth bout. Expertise does not seem to help much, either.
- Sometimes, someone will pick a nasty attack and use it repeatedly until it works. And it often does. A trip is one possibility. One difference between an expert and a beginner is that an expert will use an attack each and every time there is an opening, and is ready to defend against the next attack whether it's a surprise move or the exact same attack the fifth time in a row. Beginners vary their attacks, but often for no really good reason, and are easily faked out.
- If you've ever watched MMA, it's not uncommon to see, say, a Brazilian jiujitsu fighter use essentially the same combo to take down two or three guys in a row. You would think it would not work, but when the guy actually pulls the move on you, you see why it works.
- One good trip is to attack the torso, and when they step back to avoid or lessen the blow, you step forward and strike them in the chest or chin. That's a trip, and it requires very little force to accomplish. You're taking advantage of the natural reflex to lean back from an attack.