Draw Steel General Thread

[Reynard]

NOTE: Once again, this is a general thread for those of us that have been blocked by the creator of the original thread.

We played our first game of DS last night, using the Codex available on Steam. We did not play for long and there were technical isues for one player, along with people just trying to get used to the UI, but overall I came away with a positive impression of the game. We are a bunch of oldies (everyone has been playing RPGs for over 40 years) but we are all completely new to DS. We use Fantasy Grounds for our games usually, but decided to embrace the automation available in the COdex.

We used pregens and we only did the first tutorial fight, so there is more to learn, but I kind of like the way the combat flowed. I am excited to see how it plays once you "unlock" all your abilities.

We have a weekend of gaming scheduled for mid June where we will play a bunch of DS in person. We are hoping to get a solid enough understanding of the game now, so we don't have to waste time learning once we are together.

How is your Draw Steel journey going? Any advice for brand new folks, on either the system or the Codex?

 

[Zaukrie]

We kind of liked it....but I don't feel we gave it a fair shot. There were still plenty of rules things not explained well in the starter set!

I'm both a fan, and not, of the perceived complexity. A big issue, IMO, is the presentation of the PCs and monsters.....just looks more complex than it really is.

I think we'll give it a shot again someday.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

My group has had such a positive response they are only wanting to play it over 5e.

They’re a very combat tactical group and we’re playing on the table with minis. I’m printing out all our gridded maps at mini scale.

I just need more monsters and more treasures/rewards!

Our group bounced off negotiations really hard. We’re more “meh” on montages once it clicks that a victory comes from beating one which boosts power in future battles, lol!

Man, downtime has taken a lot to adjust to but it’s starting to click. Learning skills or languages have become favorites.

 

[Tigris]

I find the pdf sooo badly formated and laid out that I stopped reading the book less than halfway through. Its such a disrespect to the reader, especially for this price of the PDF. Feels really like a rippoff. I don't understand that especially when you say that you are inspired by 4E which made such a good use of layout, space and colours in their books and this is black on white text mostly with almost no layout elements... And especially when small indy games which did not make millions in a kickstarter are able to do this soo much better (Beacon and Break as examples). Also really feels like its written for people who already know the rules.


Also in the parts I read too much illusion of choice design (PF2 inspired), like naming the ressources of all classes different even though they work fundamentally the same.

 

[SteveC]

I was only able to start running the introductory adventure, and for my group, it was too complex. For me, this is another game I'd love to play. Hoping to see if there are some slots at Gamehole Con this year.

Of course I backed the next adventure path, hoping my group would go for it. I think this is a game that would be super fun to play, but not something I'd like to watch an actual play of. Like to get in there to play it!

 

[SteveC]

I find the pdf sooo badly formated and laid out that I stopped reading the book less than halfway through. Its such a disrespect to the reader, especially for this price of the PDF.

This is a thing that I don't understand. I would definitely describe the book as "workman-like" and give it like two and a half stars, but the first game I ran, I used only the rulebook, because I didn't have the starter adventure. I had players who were very skilled (and this is their type of game), but I also had a player who had a rough time with a Champion fighter in 5E, and they all figured out how to make a character, and then it became my job to run the game, which I didn't have trouble doing.

Draw Steel is a complex game, the most complex one I've been interested in playing recently, but is it tough to figure out? For a one-shot game with starter characters, I would definitely say not. And with the starter adventure, it walks you through the complexity.

Of course, I'm not intending to say that your experiences aren't your experiences, but I kind of scratch my head a little. For my own group, the player who was less tactically minded had to have some of the finer points explained, but he could figure out how to play the game.

I think the handbook has a decent start, and then sort of fell off in terms of presentation later, but the biggest issue for my group is that it's a more complicated game than some of them are comfortable with. Now, the ones who like complex games voted to keep playing it, but it wasn't a consensus.

I think the game suffers from being more complicated than the other systems I've played recently. Of course, it is a YMMV situation.

 

[Tigris]

This is a thing that I don't understand. I would definitely describe the book as "workman-like" and give it like two and a half stars, but the first game I ran, I used only the rulebook, because I didn't have the starter adventure. I had players who were very skilled (and this is their type of game), but I also had a player who had a rough time with a Champion fighter in 5E, and they all figured out how to make a character, and then it became my job to run the game, which I didn't have trouble doing.

Draw Steel is a complex game, the most complex one I've been interested in playing recently, but is it tough to figure out? For a one-shot game with starter characters, I would definitely say not. And with the starter adventure, it walks you through the complexity.

Of course, I'm not intending to say that your experiences aren't your experiences, but I kind of scratch my head a little. For my own group, the player who was less tactically minded had to have some of the finer points explained, but he could figure out how to play the game.

I think the handbook has a decent start, and then sort of fell off in terms of presentation later, but the biggest issue for my group is that it's a more complicated game than some of them are comfortable with. Now, the ones who like complex games voted to keep playing it, but it wasn't a consensus.

I think the game suffers from being more complicated than the other systems I've played recently. Of course, it is a YMMV situation.

Most people play 5e without ever reading or having seen the book. So making a draw steel character together with the GM with the book is not a good measurement.

And you can certainly explain draw steel, like you can explain any game. I say the book make it look more complicated than it is. (Illusion of choice design + bad layout).


Of course its possible to make a character especially if you guide people through, and playing 1 shots with starter characters is easy even in game systems like the dark eye (which is quite complicated, but we did even play thst with children).


Also the fact that you need to begin eith a starter adventure tells you that the game is too complicated to play out of the box same as PF2.


My problem is that because of the lack of use of colour and design element and bad general structure (rules mixed with character options) it takes way more time to read than other similar complex game rules, its not impossible just ineffective. And its not worth the time in my opinion and for this money released today I expect just way better.


People can also figure out burning wheel and other complicated old systems, and when you compare it with such books and are used to them draw steel is also not so bad.


But draw steel had one of the most successfull kickstarter, is inspired by D&D 4e and is literally the most expensive PDF I ever bought and was released in 2025. Even trespasser, a small indy rpg with way lower budget inspired by OSR and thus using black only has way better layout etc.


There is no excuse for it to look like this. They had the money, they sell it as a premium product they know examples which did layout and use of colour way better.


For me this is just disrespect from the game makers towards users. Thinking they dont need to care since people buy it anyway because its popular.


Every single boardgame player I showed this (and the price) where thinking I was joking and called it a ripoff.

 

[Reynard]

Most people play 5e without ever reading or having seen the book. So making a draw steel character together with the GM with the book is not a good measurement.

And you can certainly explain draw steel, like you can explain any game. I say the book make it look more complicated than it is. (Illusion of choice design + bad layout).


Of course its possible to make a character especially if you guide people through, and playing 1 shots with starter characters is easy even in game systems like the dark eye (which is quite complicated, but we did even play thst with children).


Also the fact that you need to begin eith a starter adventure tells you that the game is too complicated to play out of the box same as PF2.


My problem is that because of the lack of use of colour and design element and bad general structure (rules mixed with character options) it takes way more time to read than other similar complex game rules, its not impossible just ineffective. And its not worth the time in my opinion and for this money released today I expect just way better.


People can also figure out burning wheel and other complicated old systems, and when you compare it with such books and are used to them draw steel is also not so bad.


But draw steel had one of the most successfull kickstarter, is inspired by D&D 4e and is literally the most expensive PDF I ever bought and was released in 2025. Even trespasser, a small indy rpg with way lower budget inspired by OSR and thus using black only has way better layout etc.


There is no excuse for it to look like this. They had the money, they sell it as a premium product they know examples which did layout and use of colour way better.


For me this is just disrespect from the game makers towards users. Thinking they dont need to care since people buy it anyway because its popular.


Every single boardgame player I showed this (and the price) where thinking I was joking and called it a ripoff.

I am not sure how intentional this is on your part, but your posts come off as though what you are really mad about is that Draw Steel is not 4E Reborn, which it was never promised to be. Coville liked 4E, yes, but he also liked old school D&D and New School D&D and the Draw Steel layout and design is basically the same walls of text that have dominated everything from AD&D to Pathfinder. It should not come as a huge surprise.

And as to whether boardgamers should have much to say about RPG layout -- well, boardgame instruction manuals are lean, but that does not mean they are always easily followed.

I agree that RPG books should be designed in a utilitarian way -- but most people seem to want books that are to be read rather than referenced. Some folks are pushing graphic design toward utility, but most of those are folks in the indie or small publisher spaces.

 

[zakael19]

There’s something about the DS! Layout that just feels hard to read. Thankfully there’s already other tools to read it / search the rules / build characters due to how relatively open the license is.

(Imo it’s some mixture of minimal colors and huge blocks of low point text)

 

[Tigris]

There’s something about the DS! Layout that just feels hard to read. Thankfully there’s already other tools to read it / search the rules / build characters due to how relatively open the license is.

(Imo it’s some mixture of minimal colors and huge blocks of low point text)

I might take a look at draw steel at some point again using these tools. Whst would be the best one?

For me Its not just the minimal colours clocks of text, it just is also the lack of modern layouting tools like boxes, highlighting etc.

It feels like this was just a word document made to PDF mostly.