Draw Steel General Thread

[Staffan]

I might take a look at draw steel at some point again using these tools. Whst would be the best one?

For me Its not just the minimal colours clocks of text, it just is also the lack of modern layouting tools like boxes, highlighting etc.

It feels like this was just a word document made to PDF mostly.

There's the Steel Compendium, which uses more colors and iconography. I'm not sure if that's better though, but then again I don't have a problem with the books' basic layout.

 

[Reynard]

There's the Steel Compendium, which uses more colors and iconography. I'm not sure if that's better though, but then again I don't have a problem with the books' basic layout.

"Website Status: Suspicious." -- McAfee

 

[ffanxii4ever]

I might take a look at draw steel at some point again using these tools. Whst would be the best one?

For me Its not just the minimal colours clocks of text, it just is also the lack of modern layouting tools like boxes, highlighting etc.

It feels like this was just a word document made to PDF mostly.

For Character Creation and referencing, Forge Steel is great.

I know some people have difficulty with RPG books if the layout is boring or very plain (which is really what the Draw Steel books comes off to me as), but it is also just a rules reference.

I feel like claiming "disrespect from the game makers towards users. Thinking they dont need to care since people buy it anyway" might be stretching it a bit. Not every game needs to be an art piece.

 

[Tigris]

For Character Creation and referencing, Forge Steel is great.

I know some people have difficulty with RPG books if the layout is boring or very plain (which is really what the Draw Steel books comes off to me as), but it is also just a rules reference.

I feel like claiming "disrespect from the game makers towards users. Thinking they dont need to care since people buy it anyway" might be stretching it a bit. Not every game needs to be an art piece.

This has nothing to do with art piece it has to do with readability and information processing speed.

I dont even believe in "art", but I do believe in proven techniques to make information easier to find and process.

I dont want colour because it looks better but because it encodes information and makes it easier to find what you are looking for.


There is a reason why boardgame manuals use colour and boxes and infographics etc. And not just black on white plain text.


RPG books try to be "art pieces" because they are often seen as the product (instead of the game), but boardgame manuals do concentrate on usability. Not all of them are great, but almost no modern ones are as bad as some RPG books like draw steel, which just completly disrespect readers and ignore common knowledge about how to present information.

Things are WAY better rules references if you have colours because it makes finding the part you need easier. Even pages looking distinct helps when going through a book to find a part you search better.


Because it is a rules reference, and not a piece of art, it nerds to use good layout and colour to make it more usable.

 

[zakael19]

forge steel is a great player and GM resource; and the compendium is trying to be the DS! version of the redoubtable website for 4e.

 

[SteveC]

Most people play 5e without ever reading or having seen the book. So making a draw steel character together with the GM with the book is not a good measurement.

I have to stop you right there. You were saying the PDF was so low quality you quit reading it, which is what I was replying to. And people can play 5E with a pre gen without reading the rules. They can't make characters, which is what I was talking about when saying the rules were servicable, both for skilled players and new players.

And I ran a group with the starter set by handing out the characters and having people go, so yes, you can play Draw Steel without reading the rules. I expect that people doing the starter do this all the time.

Also the fact that you need to begin eith a starter adventure tells you that the game is too complicated to play out of the box same as PF2.

And again, the first time I ran the game, the starter set wasn't out so I had to generate something for the group to play. The starter set is designed to help the GM -- err "Director" teach the game. Just like the Keep on the Borderlands is.

And just like the PF2 starter set is.

All three games have ways to make it easier for someone to learn to play the game without just dumping them into the game. I'd say it's a strength in all cases.

For me this is just disrespect from the game makers towards users. Thinking they dont need to care since people buy it anyway because its popular.

I get it: you don't like the game. Which is totally fine, since it is a complicated game that will not be to everyone's taste.

But Draw Steel is an excellent option for players who like complex tactical games. Saying it is somehow disrespectful of the players goes beyond "this is a game I don't like," and I don't want people who like the kind of game Draw Steel is to shy away from it. I'd love to play it. But the reason I'm not playing it with my group is that tastes vary, not because it's a bad product.

 

[zakael19]

Draw Steel! is a fantastic game, doing really smart and clever things in its focus on its style of play, with interesting attempts to solidify player attention and excitement off-turn for a game with turn-based initiative. It's fairly cheaper starter product is a great entry point with an excellent setup for running, especially in-person given the way it breaks up the documents and encounters for the GM as an on the fly reference. It's a really good game for those who want to do tactical combat play, I think its currency -> ability system is absolutely brilliant in feeling like you have really interesting choices to make on your turn, and the way things combo together is incredibly satisfying.

It also has the most unpleasant layout formatting of any RPG I've purchased over the last year or so to my eyes. I can't put my thumb on exactly why, apart from the lack of color within the text itself (the diagrams are generally excellent), but my brain slides off trying to read it.

 

[SteveC]

It also has the most unpleasant layout formatting of any RPG I've purchased over the last year or so to my eyes. I can't put my thumb on exactly why, apart from the lack of color within the text itself (the diagrams are generally excellent), but my brain slides off trying to read it.

As I wrote earlier, I think it starts solid but gets less and less focused. I would not doubt that there will be a "remaster" of the game eventually, with someone doing a redesign of the layout, look, and feel.

Given the people who are involved with it and the quality of books they have previously created, I was surprised. I don't think it should put people off the game (if it's to their taste), but the look isn't selling it.

I compare it to Daggerheart or Fabula Ultima, which both have a lot of care put into their looks.

 

[gnarlygninja]

Probably a reason why the other one was a [+] topic.

Draw Steel got me back into TTRPG after some serious burnout, because one of my groups backed it for me and I figured I should run for them after spending that much money on me. That was...a mistake, which I talked about in the other topic while I could see it. I've since stopped (for anyone who has a burning need to know how that game ended: they hit pretty much every bad outcome the Delian Tomb plans for and then had a TPK in the last session) and the experience is much smoother. There are some systems that can work if only one player understands the rules and keeps track of everything, but Draw Steel is not one of them.
Most of the frustrations I've had since switching to playing with strangers have come from the fact that Draw Steel is a lot of people's second game. So there's a group of people who treat it just like DnD with different dice then get frustrated when things work differently ("Why'd they change the names of the classes?" or "why can't I triviliaze encounters with my spells?") and another group of people who have very specific opinions about what's wrong with DnD that they took for granted Draw Steel would fix even though it's not that kind of game.

 

[CommodoreKong]

I ran the Delian Tomb with my regular group in Codex a few months back and they were all very impressed and wanted to play Crack the Sun when that releases.

I’m hoping to run another friend group who have never really played TTRPGs through The Delian Tomb soon in Foundry to try that implementation of it.

Personally I like how streamlined and well designed it was compared to 5e and Pathfinder 2e.

I find the pdf sooo badly formated and laid out that I stopped reading the book less than halfway through. Its such a disrespect to the reader, especially for this price of the PDF. Feels really like a rippoff. I don't understand that especially when you say that you are inspired by 4E which made such a good use of layout, space and colours in their books and this is black on white text mostly with almost no layout elements... And especially when small indy games which did not make millions in a kickstarter are able to do this soo much better (Beacon and Break as examples). Also really feels like its written for people who already know the rules.


Also in the parts I read too much illusion of choice design (PF2 inspired), like naming the ressources of all classes different even though they work fundamentally the same.

Yeah this is a big issue. The layout/design of the book isn’t very good and it really needs a top to bottom rethink if they ever do a revised edition.