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Dungeon of the Mad Mage Maps and Miscellany Review aka Rip Off.

jasper

Explorer
I PAID $19.42 FOR PHOTOCOPIES!
Well not really. The maps are double side and laminated so your soft drink will not damage them. True fact. The maps are in black, white and looks to brown. I just did a side by side compare with Map 26 and it the same size as the book.
Appendix B the Runes deck and Appendix C the Secrets deck do have some nice cover art on the backside of the cards.
SAVE YOUR MONEY. SCAN. DOUBLE SIDE PRINT ON CARDSTOCK. And slip into plastic paper protectors from your school supplies.
If this was a $9.99 to $10.99 price range It would be a good value. But preordering was a bad idea. If yours has not shipped yet. Cancel it.
 

SuperTD

Explorer
Did you not look at what it was you were purchasing before you bought it? This information wasn't hidden, though I do understand the frustration with the maps themselves as it is a high price point for what are just handouts.
 

Jester David

Villager
Did you not look at what it was you were purchasing before you bought it? This information wasn't hidden, though I do understand the frustration with the maps themselves as it is a high price point for what are just handouts.
The didn’t advertise that it was going to be black-and-white line art.

There’s no sample art or maps on the product page, nor a description of the size of the maps:
http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/waterdeep-dungeon-mad-mage-0

You need to go to the Amazon page for that:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0786966653
(And those images weren’t always there.)

But even then, one might assume key maps are sized for miniatures. Such as the final boss’ chamber.
It also would be easy looking at past products to assume they’d be full colour and detailed, like in past products.

This would have been a great product for any of their past adventures. It would have been amazing for Tomb of Annihilation with DM maps on one side and PC maps on the reverse. But for this product... the nature of the maps just make it significantly less desirable.
 

guachi

Villager
I'd scan and blow up the copy so that 1" = 5', then print. It'll be cheaper and more useful than what you can buy.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
It makes me sad that they don't have a bunch of printable PDF handouts and maps you can download from WOTC like Paizo used to for the 3e APs. Come on these a big expensive HC campaigns, give me a handout of the note the NPC X slips to the party! An image of the crazy design on the door of death they are trying to get past, etc. I ran OotA and they offered map downloads...that I could pay for from a 3rd party. So I just found a copy of the book online and used it to print stuff out.

:.-( sad face Flexor.
 

Jester David

Villager
It makes me sad that they don't have a bunch of printable PDF handouts and maps you can download from WOTC like Paizo used to for the 3e APs. Come on these a big expensive HC campaigns, give me a handout of the note the NPC X slips to the party! An image of the crazy design on the door of death they are trying to get past, etc. I ran OotA and they offered map downloads...that I could pay for from a 3rd party. So I just found a copy of the book online and used it to print stuff out.

:.-( sad face Flexor.
Even Paizo charges for those now.
And you can buy them from the artists.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Even Paizo charges for those now.
And you can buy them from the artists.
Sad to see Paizo is not as user friendly as they used to be. Running Savage Tide I had full map and handout packs for each adventure, it was great!

I went to WOTC's site looking for the module print out support only to find it didn't exist. I was shocked I tell you, shocked! Then went to the artists page and didn't think I wanted to add in like 20 bucks to the cost of this 50 dollar module. So I acquired them online as I didn't have a quick copier to use to get copies out of the book. The book maps were not very conducive to nice clean copies either as they were more artsy than functional, unlike the old 1e blue or black line maps. Just another reason I'm glad I moved on to new systems.
 

Jester David

Villager
Sad to see Paizo is not as user friendly as they used to be. Running Savage Tide I had full map and handout packs for each adventure, it was great!
They’re just not giving things away. That doesn’t mean they’re not “friendly.”
Art is expensive. They’re a buisness explicitly out to make money. By selling the art a second time to those who are interested, they have more money to spend getting even more maps.
(But the interactive map packs for the APs are given free to anyone who subscribes to the line.)

I went to WOTC's site looking for the module print out support only to find it didn't exist. I was shocked I tell you, shocked! Then went to the artists page and didn't think I wanted to add in like 20 bucks to the cost of this 50 dollar module.
WotC leaves it up to the artist to give away or sell the maps. They don’t cut the artist out, giving away their hard work.

I display the maps on a TV above my game table. $20 was expensive for the Tomb or Nine Gods maps. But it helped my table run through the dungeon.
But, honestly... $20 is like what? Five Starbucks coffees?
Even with that added cost, D&D is still cheaper than golf.

So I acquired them online as I didn't have a quick copier to use to get copies out of the book.
...
Online how?

Plus, it’s 2018. You don’t need a “copier”. You need a smartphone/ tablet with a free scanner app and a printer.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
A company that supports me using their product in this way gets more friendly points than one that doesn't and is more likely to get my money. Never said i was entitled to any thing. But the value of their product wasn't that great for me and I haven't purchased anymore AP's from them and switched to a different game in the long run. For me I'd prefer more usable maps then have those as free downloads on their website with any other module support materials handouts. Making their product less work to run makes me as a GM more likely to maybe overlook some other issues and keep running it.

The scanner thing with my phone...not sure why that didn't occur to me. But still you don't have full page copies of the maps, so you scan, blow them up, hopefully nothing gets too blurry, etc. I know the scans from the pages got blurry when I made them full size.

Buying Rappan Athuck I got a separate group of all the maps in B&W and full page, and without extra art and whatnot making them more difficult to use. So I print out the maps, mark them up with the info I'll need to run it at at glance and that is helpful for me. Though if more fancy maps that are an additional cost to get help shift more units and make more money they are doing what is best for them. Again WOTC owes me nothing, I just haven't purchased anything from them since that AP, and not out of spite just more value for my $$$ elsewhere. No idea if most GM's care about that but its something that I notice.

Don't spend 4 bucks on coffees or play golf and adding another 20 to the cost, for me, puts it past the value stage.

Probably usenet but its been over a year since I bought and started it.
 

77IM

The Grand Druid (level 22)
Question for the peanut gallery:
If I buy the adventure on D&D Beyond, does it come with high-quality maps and cards that I can print out?
And how much does it cost?
 
Question for the peanut gallery:
If I buy the adventure on D&D Beyond, does it come with high-quality maps and cards that I can print out?
And how much does it cost?
I can't speak with absolute certainty about Dungeon of the Mad Mage, as I don't have it, but previous adventures in DDB have always included high res versions of all the maps and handouts in the books. For example, the map of Chult in TOA is 2213x2997. So if the maps and cards you are asking about are in the hard cover version, they should be available if you purchase it on DDB. In most cases, player versions of the maps are also available. The only exceptions are in cases when WOTC didn't provide them to DDB; as far as I know there aren't many such exceptions. (for example, to my knowledge all of the TOA maps include player versions)
 

jasper

Explorer
Did you not look at what it was you were purchasing before you bought it? This information wasn't hidden, though I do understand the frustration with the maps themselves as it is a high price point for what are just handouts.
DOH! Yes I did. If the map maker is getting a % cut of each sale, he needs to kiss the marketing person. One, I assumed since it was still August 6, 2018, the pictures were not the final product .
Two, here is the ad copy 'Hundreds of years ago, long before Waterdeep was built, Halaster Blackcloak carved a vast dungeon beneath Mount Waterdeep and stocked it with all manner of creatures from across the planes. Though it is likely impossible to map out the entirety of Halaster's domain, the maps contained herein lay out the bulk of this deadly dungeon and are certain to lead you through many hours of play." Notice STILL no mention of size.
Pictures 1,2,3 are just the cover page, back page. And AGAIN no size. Picture 4, They just opened the product and took a snapshot. AGAIN no size. Picture 5, Cover standing up, overlooking the two maps. AGAIN no size. Picture 6 of Joe Manga, Debby Wolf, and Eddy Lizard which are not showing the product.
YES IT WAS MY BEEPING MISTAKE. BUT I warning others not to make the same. But I had mad money at the time and needed to get over $50 to get free shipping. So I bought the same time I bought my wife some of her stuff.
 

pogre

Adventurer
[MENTION=277]jasper[/MENTION] - I am glad to be warned off of this product. So that is one person you helped!
 

Parmandur

Adventurer
I don't run 5e anymore so no. If they are moving back to more usable maps that is a good thing though, at least for referees like me.
Both Dragon Heist and the Dungeon have black and white, utilitarian maps that harken back to old school design. Some have complained about it, from the opposite viewpoint you have about the older AP maps. This amuses me to no end, because I am sick in the head.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Both Dragon Heist and the Dungeon have black and white, utilitarian maps that harken back to old school design. Some have complained about it, from the opposite viewpoint you have about the older AP maps. This amuses me to no end, because I am sick in the head.
If I was the type to buy RPG books for reading I would have no issues with the fancy maps with art and background colors and texture, etc. But when I print a map out all that stuff makes it less usable as I begin making notes and such over those background images and colors, etc. Usable beats pretty every single time for me. I suppose we will see what the market wants.
 

LordEntrails

Explorer
Two, here is the ad copy 'Hundreds of years ago, long before Waterdeep was built, Halaster Blackcloak carved a vast dungeon beneath Mount Waterdeep and stocked it with all manner of creatures from across the planes. Though it is likely impossible to map out the entirety of Halaster's domain, the maps contained herein lay out the bulk of this deadly. dungeon and are certain to lead you through many hours of play." Notice STILL no mention of size.
...
I appreciate the warning. The ad copy is deceptive. IMO, mainly because the maps in DoMM only detail about 15% of what has previously been detailed for the Undermountain, I don't see how anyone can claim that is the "bulk".

I will say I'm not surprised by what you describe. I have mixed feelings about it though because I'm working on releasing my own versions of the maps ;p

I've been so disappointed (much for the same reasons as you) with their recent maps that I've started a project to create and sell on the DMsGuild full color maps for Undermountain that also fully map all the levels and not just the portions that the DoMM maps portray.

Both Dragon Heist and the Dungeon have black and white, utilitarian maps that harken back to old school design. Some have complained about it, from the opposite viewpoint you have about the older AP maps. This amuses me to no end, because I am sick in the head.
I don't think that black & white or two-color maps are inherently more functional that multi or full-color maps are. It's all about the cartographer and the style they portray. What is it about color maps that you find less functional?
 

Parmandur

Adventurer
I appreciate the warning. The ad copy is deceptive. IMO, mainly because the maps in DoMM only detail about 15% of what has previously been detailed for the Undermountain, I don't see how anyone can claim that is the "bulk".

I will say I'm not surprised by what you describe. I have mixed feelings about it though because I'm working on releasing my own versions of the maps ;p

I've been so disappointed (much for the same reasons as you) with their recent maps that I've started a project to create and sell on the DMsGuild full color maps for Undermountain that also fully map all the levels and not just the portions that the DoMM maps portray.


I don't think that black & white or two-color maps are inherently more functional that multi or full-color maps are. It's all about the cartographer and the style they portray. What is it about color maps that you find less functional?
Too busy: my preference is for the old blue scale maps, very easy to use and get the lay of the land without anything getting in the way. Also, easier to copy. Love the maps in the recent products.
 

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