Skin colour is one thing, but also identifying humanoids by describing them the way 18-20th century racists described ethnic groups other than "Caucasians" is hardly any better, and that's what is still going on. When you then declare those humanoids generally evil, that's where it really starts to be problematic. It's actually got worse with 5e in that respect.
WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace
- Status
Skin colour is one thing, but also identifying humanoids by describing them the way 18-20th century racists described ethnic groups other than "Caucasians" is hardly any better, and that's what is still going on. When you then declare those humanoids generally evil, that's where it really starts to be problematic. It's actually got worse with 5e in that respect.
Doug McCrae
Legend
5e deserves credit for its greater representation of BIPOC people in the PHB, but I agree with @Bluenose that in a number of respects it made things worse.
Bio-essentialism has been made more explicit. This was probably the intent in 1e too, but it wasn’t as clear-cut. 5e PHB:
The division of the world into "civilized" and "savage" humanoid races mirrors the world-view and language of a 19th century imperialist. 5E MM (emphasis mine):
The artwork used for goblins and hobgoblins is a caricature of East Asian people. This was not the case from 2e to 4e and is probably a reference to the Japanese warrior armour in the art for the 1e MM hobgoblin.
The lizardfolk entry in the 5e MM is a straight "Darkest Africa" story about "primitive" cannibal tribes except with lizard people inserted in the place of black people. The 1e lizard man is more like an animal, living in caves and fighting with teeth and claws, apart from 10% that have "evolved to a higher state", live in "crude huts" and use weapons.
5e made orcish sexual violence explicit, though it had always been implicit in the concept of the half-orc. 5E MM: "Luthic, the orc goddess of fertility and wife of Gruumsh, demands that orcs procreate often and indiscriminately so that orc hordes swell generation after generation. The orcs' drive to reproduce runs stronger than any other humanoid race, and they readily crossbreed with other races."
Fear of miscegenation is apparent in the 1e/2e use of the word "mongrel" to describe half-orcs, and in Tolkien. The Two Towers: "Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!" This is Treebeard referring to the work of Saruman.
In addition to sexual violence the related idea of orcs outbreeding other races can be seen in the 5e MM "Luthic" quotation above. Very similar notions can be found in the writings of early 20th century race "scientists" and in the recent (2011) far right idea of the Great Replacement.
Bio-essentialism has been made more explicit. This was probably the intent in 1e too, but it wasn’t as clear-cut. 5e PHB:
The evil deities who created other races, though, made those races to serve them. Those races have strong inborn tendencies that match the nature of their gods. Most orcs share the violent, savage nature of the orc god, Gruumsh. and are thus inclined toward evil. Even if an orc chooses a good alignment, it struggles against its innate tendencies for its entire life. (Even half-orcs feel the lingering pull of the orc god's influence.)
The division of the world into "civilized" and "savage" humanoid races mirrors the world-view and language of a 19th century imperialist. 5E MM (emphasis mine):
Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage… The most common humanoid races are the ones most suitable as player characters: humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings. Almost as numerous but far more savage and brutal, and almost uniformly evil, are the races of goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears), orcs, gnolls, lizardfolk, and kobolds.
The artwork used for goblins and hobgoblins is a caricature of East Asian people. This was not the case from 2e to 4e and is probably a reference to the Japanese warrior armour in the art for the 1e MM hobgoblin.
The lizardfolk entry in the 5e MM is a straight "Darkest Africa" story about "primitive" cannibal tribes except with lizard people inserted in the place of black people. The 1e lizard man is more like an animal, living in caves and fighting with teeth and claws, apart from 10% that have "evolved to a higher state", live in "crude huts" and use weapons.
5e made orcish sexual violence explicit, though it had always been implicit in the concept of the half-orc. 5E MM: "Luthic, the orc goddess of fertility and wife of Gruumsh, demands that orcs procreate often and indiscriminately so that orc hordes swell generation after generation. The orcs' drive to reproduce runs stronger than any other humanoid race, and they readily crossbreed with other races."
Fear of miscegenation is apparent in the 1e/2e use of the word "mongrel" to describe half-orcs, and in Tolkien. The Two Towers: "Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!" This is Treebeard referring to the work of Saruman.
In addition to sexual violence the related idea of orcs outbreeding other races can be seen in the 5e MM "Luthic" quotation above. Very similar notions can be found in the writings of early 20th century race "scientists" and in the recent (2011) far right idea of the Great Replacement.
Last edited:
Sepulchrave II
Legend
Excellent post.
Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
This is an excellent post, and very well-thought out and researched. As such, I am posting some general thoughts not in argument with your post, but more as nebulous thoughts in conjunction with your post.
A. The half-orc was always ... well, problematic is the best way to put it. In a manner very different than the half-elf or even the half-ogre (which was in Dragon Magazine). There was an presumed backstory for a half-orc in 1e that was best not to examine.
2. Which makes me think about the concept of "sexual violence" and that I am glad it is getting more scrutiny today. On the one hand, it is a topic that I have never had in my games, nor could I imagine it (although, again, the presumed backstory for a half-orc). On the other hand, any given episode of a CSI/Criminal Minds/Law & Order episode on broadcast TV has a lot more creepy sexual violence than I would ever allow in my games.
3. It is, therefore, weird to me from a game perspective that 5e chose to re-emphasize this aspect for Orcs.
4. That said, I am not always convinced that a deep reading ("reader reacts," "New Criticism" etc.) of RPG material is always warranted; perhaps there is a line between "Yes, Top Gun was campy and homoerotic" and "Sometimes a Lizardfolk is just a Lizardfolk."
Definitely food for thought.
Last edited:
Xenonnonex
Hero
If you get blocked from a thread for argument, the proper response is not to continue that argument in another thread.
@Sacrosanct
As mixed race living aboard in an Asian minority country. Grinning and bearing is not a stereotype. it is factual. I have seen it. Racist attacks have been made against Asians here. And they did nothing about it. News have reported quiet complaints. But the issue is that Asians do not want to voice their experiences. Not a stereotype. Based in complete reality.
Living in an Asian country is different. Asians are the majority. And do not feel discriminated. We are talking about the experiences of Asian diaspora.
To not understand the differences there is blaffing.
Again. I am not dismissing any opinions.
As mixed race living aboard in an Asian minority country. Grinning and bearing is not a stereotype. it is factual. I have seen it. Racist attacks have been made against Asians here. And they did nothing about it. News have reported quiet complaints. But the issue is that Asians do not want to voice their experiences. Not a stereotype. Based in complete reality.
Living in an Asian country is different. Asians are the majority. And do not feel discriminated. We are talking about the experiences of Asian diaspora.
To not understand the differences there is blaffing.
Again. I am not dismissing any opinions.
Last edited:
Sacrosanct
Legend
Tagging me in response to a post I made in a thread you've been banned from seems to me to be bad form. For reasons including but not limited to an appearance of circumventing the thread ban to bring the discussion into another thread. @Umbran can make that call, but either way, I'm not going to get into it here with you and derail this thread further.
Xenonnonex
Hero
You are misrepresenting the issue. And trivializing the issue for Asian diaspora outside of Asian countries. That is not good. It is hurtful for these communities.
But sure.
Mod Note:
Dragging drama around between threads is not acceptable. So, you're blocked from this one, too.
Doug McCrae
Legend
It is but it's worse than that because it’s also bound up with race.
All these, connected, ideas are explicit in 5e’s orcs:
- Sexual violence (previously implicit)
- Dominant traits (also explicit in 1e/2e)
- Inferior racial heritage as an indelible stain (made a bit more explicit in 5e)
- Inferior races outbreeding superior ones (new to 5e, though had always been hinted at by 1 and 2)
1e MM: "Half-orcs tend to favor the orcish strain heavily, so such sorts are basically orcs although they can sometimes (10%) pass themselves off as true creatures of their other stock (goblins, hobgoblins, humans, etc.)."
5e MM: "When an orc procreates with a non-orc humanoid of similar size and stature (such as a human or a dwarf), the resulting child is either an orc or a half-orc."
Another problem is that in 5e the goddess, Luthic, takes all the blame for (presumably male) orcish sexual violence. This is a departure* from the original source material where Luthic is only the goddess of female orcish fertility. Gruumsh is the god of male orcish fertility.
Roger Moore, The Gods of the Orcs, Dragon #62 (1982):
"Luthic governs several spheres. She is the goddess of female orcs, orcish fertility (more so for females; Gruumsh is the male fertility god), caves and caverns (which she digs herself), servitude (as she serves Gruumsh), and primitive medicine, and she helps restore orcish morale."
EDIT: *This change, which I had at first assumed happened in 5e, seems to have first occurred in the 2e Planescape book On Hallowed Ground (1996), and continued into 3e Faiths & Pantheons. In both of these Luthic alone has responsibility for fertility and children. In 2e Monster Mythology (1992), the division was the same as Moore's article.
Last edited:
I originally read this as an attempt to obscure the sexual violence implicit in the older half-orc lore, rather than to emphasize it more strongly. Mainly due to "crossbreed," which doesn't necessarily imply force. Not discounting your take; just an alternate perspective.
That said, I'm of the opinion that half-orcs should just be retired as a character option, in favor of featuring orcs as a core option, as I'm not sure that older-edition baggage can ever fully be shed otherwise. (Or at least, have both orcs and half-orcs, and treat them akin to elves and half-elves.)
Last edited:
- Status
