D&D 5E (2024) Effects that kill you at 0 hp

TheSword

Legend
My players fought the executioner from Dungeons of Drakenheim in their last session and it (like many other creatures) has an ability that kills the target if the attack drops them to 0 hp. No saving throw, no chance of word of healing.

It was brutal and shocking - kind of how it is intended to be. Now while the creature was clearly telegraphed. It was pretty brutal but in keeping with the creature (it was called the Executioner!). There are lots of other creatures that have this power in one form or another.

What do people feel about these powers? Do they bring back some of the deadly feel of early editions and add some much needed jeopardy. Or are they arbitrary and unfair?
 

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I don't like them in 5e because yes its shocking, as it always will if common rules suddenly don't apply anymore. And I think that is the part that icks me a bit. I have no problems with more deadlier games, but if players don't know that such abilities exist, they are making uninformed choices when fighting against a monster that has such an ability. They make tactical choices under the assumption of death rules they think they can rely on. For abilities with a lesser effect this might make a cool surprise moment, but I think as a player I would be pissed if I decide to tank the guy, because my cleric will heal me, but than my char suddenly dies in an instant.

I think you either need to inform players before that such monsters exist or you need to demonstrate this ability on an NPC - which is weird again, because normally NPCs die immediately anyway. So you kinda have to implement death saving throws for NPCs to make the demonstration valuable.

It doesn't fit 5e vibe over all. If you want instant death be a part of your game, you are better off with an OSR game or other games that have stricter death rules than 5e.

edit: I just remembered that AFAIK most monsters in 5e with such abilities are higher CR and the party often has reviving capabilities. This weakens my point to a degree. So maybe don't use such monsters/spells in Tier 1, but in higher Tiers its less problematic IMO.
 

As a DM I tend to avoid them unless the party has revivify, even then I'm hesitant. When you're very low level, death is always an option. A crit when you're low on HP at low level when I roll damage? Instant death is a possibility. But after a while? You want to be playing a big darn hero and I'll respect that.

Death is always a possibility at any level but I try to avoid the "Oops your dead" because of a few lucky rolls on my side. I always roll in the open but my dice have a reputation for being evil now and then, with multiple crits in a row which can take someone from "I might need healing" to "start making death saves" after a single round of attacks. That's not fun for a lot of people if being reduced to 0 means death.
 

My players fought the executioner from Dungeons of Drakenheim in their last session and it (like many other creatures) has an ability that kills the target if the attack drops them to 0 hp. No saving throw, no chance of word of healing.

It was brutal and shocking - kind of how it is intended to be. Now while the creature was clearly telegraphed. It was pretty brutal but in keeping with the creature (it was called the Executioner!). There are lots of other creatures that have this power in one form or another.

What do people feel about these powers? Do they bring back some of the deadly feel of early editions and add some much needed jeopardy. Or are they arbitrary and unfair?
Used sparingly as they are intended, I’m totally good with it. They’re not the same kind of deadly as previous editions, but still having death on the table as a possible outcome is good for the game overall.
 


I think that needing to give a monster specific powers to overcome an excessive level of risk mitigation buiklt into the system speaks volumes about how fardeath saves & trivialized healing massively overdo things with awful cascade effects on play. Death at zero should have been the default. In 5e they went so far beyond "most people use the negative10 optional rule" that even the "I know my PC is in real danger if they are fighting while at low hp but think we can do this fight because we rock & I know my group has their bleep together" razor's edge dance is gone to the point that death at zero/neg10 was not even mentioned as a valid option that the GM is not being a monster for even suggesting a reversion.
 

Something a lot of people seem to forget when discussing when a character dies is that D&D was designed without a critical hit system. Damage variance was generally small, usually a roll of a die without bonuses. If a monster did 1-6 damage, you knew, from your own hit point totals, what risks you were taking each turn.

When critical hits were added as an optional rule in 2e, they still only doubled the dice of damage rolled, so now there was a 5% chance that monster that did 1-6 damage did 2-12...it added unpredictability to combat, but it was still nothing beyond the pale.

"Death's Door" rules in this time period were more a buffer for low level characters.

3e brought in expanded crit ranges and crit multipliers, but it also did two other things that ended up being massive game changers- critical hits now included damage bonuses, and monsters now routinely had those bonuses. Fighting an Orc was much swingier- he could deal 1d12+3 damage (4-15) per hit, with a 5% chance of dealing 3d12+9 (12-45)! Instant death out of nowhere suddenly made combat unpredictable- if you were a melee character bellying up to a monster, you could go from OK to bleeding out at any given moment, and the humble Death's Door was woefully unable to cope with this.

4e simplified crits by having them only deal maximum damage (though bonus crit damage was a feature of some magic weapons and Half-Orcs, as I recall) and not only expanded how long you could remain alive below 0, but introduced "heal from 0" so that healing at low levels could actually get you back up into the fight, instead of risking someone taking one of the Cleric's 2 Healing Words and still being unconscious. The idea of monsters doing average damage cropped up as an option here, to try and reduce variables further, so characters had some idea of how much danger they were in.

5e went back to "roll double dice" on crits, but some monsters were given lots of dice to throw at people (the Giant Ape's 7d6+6 rock throw is a favorite example of mine). Multiattack on monsters can be seen at fairly low CR's and it's not uncommon to see 3 attacks per round by the end of Tier 1.

Death's Door was buffed again and Death Saves and heal from zero were retained likely to combat this volatility- a character with d8 hit dice and a 14 Con has a fairly predictable hit point total by default (I mean, who rolls for hit points anymore?). By level 7, such a character has 52 hit points. If they find themselves crit by a thrown gorilla rock, the average damage takes them from full to zero, with no opportunity to do anything about it. If the dice are rolled, you could potentially take 90 damage! If our 52 hit point friend was wounded, there's a real risk (if small) that he could die outright! And if he wasn't able to heal from 0, well, lol, he's basically out of the fight and that's that.

People do complain about how hard it is to kill PC's, but it's not impossible, even with all these safeguards. In a world where most people have no real defensive maneuver that still allows them to attack, and only one reaction per turn even if you had one, where monsters routinely attack multiple times and can have explosive critical damage, the possibility is always on the table, especially if said multiattacking monster lays you out with attacks remaining and nobody else in easy reach!

And 5e healing is woefully bad at mitigating this damage, leading to the tubthumping play cycle ("I get knocked down, I get up again") so many revile.*

*5.5 healing is an improvement, but I don't believe it's where it needs to be when compared to incoming damage.

Death at 0 effects are just rude at this point. Sure, maybe if your table plays optimally and everyone has shield/silvery barbs/adamantine armor/bonus action dodge/resistance/etc. etc., it can seem like death in 5e is a joke. That's a consequence of any game that allows players to optimize to take something they don't like off the table.

But the groups I run for aren't like that, and it's a common sight for melee characters to be bleeding out with me wondering if this is the battle that's going to break the campaign. And I'm always happy when it isn't, because experience has taught me that a character dying mid-adventure is not a good thing.

YMMV, of course.
 

Something a lot of people seem to forget when discussing when a character dies is that D&D was designed without a critical hit system. Damage variance was generally small, usually a roll of a die without bonuses. If a monster did 1-6 damage, you knew, from your own hit point totals, what risks you were taking each turn.

When critical hits were added as an optional rule in 2e, they still only doubled the dice of damage rolled, so now there was a 5% chance that monster that did 1-6 damage did 2-12...it added unpredictability to combat, but it was still nothing beyond the pale.

"Death's Door" rules in this time period were more a buffer for low level characters.

3e brought in expanded crit ranges and crit multipliers, but it also did two other things that ended up being massive game changers- critical hits now included damage bonuses, and monsters now routinely had those bonuses. Fighting an Orc was much swingier- he could deal 1d12+3 damage (4-15) per hit, with a 5% chance of dealing 3d12+9 (12-45)! Instant death out of nowhere suddenly made combat unpredictable- if you were a melee character bellying up to a monster, you could go from OK to bleeding out at any given moment, and the humble Death's Door was woefully unable to cope with this.

4e simplified crits by having them only deal maximum damage (though bonus crit damage was a feature of some magic weapons and Half-Orcs, as I recall) and not only expanded how long you could remain alive below 0, but introduced "heal from 0" so that healing at low levels could actually get you back up into the fight, instead of risking someone taking one of the Cleric's 2 Healing Words and still being unconscious. The idea of monsters doing average damage cropped up as an option here, to try and reduce variables further, so characters had some idea of how much danger they were in.

5e went back to "roll double dice" on crits, but some monsters were given lots of dice to throw at people (the Giant Ape's 7d6+6 rock throw is a favorite example of mine). Multiattack on monsters can be seen at fairly low CR's and it's not uncommon to see 3 attacks per round by the end of Tier 1.

Death's Door was buffed again and Death Saves and heal from zero were retained likely to combat this volatility- a character with d8 hit dice and a 14 Con has a fairly predictable hit point total by default (I mean, who rolls for hit points anymore?). By level 7, such a character has 52 hit points. If they find themselves crit by a thrown gorilla rock, the average damage takes them from full to zero, with no opportunity to do anything about it. If the dice are rolled, you could potentially take 90 damage! If our 52 hit point friend was wounded, there's a real risk (if small) that he could die outright! And if he wasn't able to heal from 0, well, lol, he's basically out of the fight and that's that.

People do complain about how hard it is to kill PC's, but it's not impossible, even with all these safeguards. In a world where most people have no real defensive maneuver that still allows them to attack, and only one reaction per turn even if you had one, where monsters routinely attack multiple times and can have explosive critical damage, the possibility is always on the table, especially if said multiattacking monster lays you out with attacks remaining and nobody else in easy reach!

And 5e healing is woefully bad at mitigating this damage, leading to the tubthumping play cycle ("I get knocked down, I get up again") so many revile.*

*5.5 healing is an improvement, but I don't believe it's where it needs to be when compared to incoming damage.

Death at 0 effects are just rude at this point. Sure, maybe if your table plays optimally and everyone has shield/silvery barbs/adamantine armor/bonus action dodge/resistance/etc. etc., it can seem like death in 5e is a joke. That's a consequence of any game that allows players to optimize to take something they don't like off the table.

But the groups I run for aren't like that, and it's a common sight for melee characters to be bleeding out with me wondering if this is the battle that's going to break the campaign. And I'm always happy when it isn't, because experience has taught me that a character dying mid-adventure is not a good thing.

YMMV, of course.
You overrate the risks qcm then. That bold bit is only half of what it brought. It also expanded the tactical grid mechanics previously in player options: combat & tactics so melee on both sides got sticky in ways dangerous to ignore while casters on both sides were extremely vulnerable to both ranged attacks (often from melee with a spare weapon during close) and melee attacks while themselves being very responsible for setting up their crunchy allies for the W with buff/debuff/control stuff even while trying to balance their need to protect each other.

Most of that is still possible... In theory, but PCs are so insulated from risk that it's not worth bothering and it doesn't matter if everyone in the group is just face rolling them r way through totally different plans where there is no collaboration on any level.
 

I think it's a choice based on what kinda game you want to play. Death should always have consequences.

You can always play it like EQ. Naked corpse runs. End up having to hire a necro to summon your corpse.

So in a wipe out, just invent situation like a wandering necro happened to find your bones. Luckily, he will release you from your obligations as an undead servant if you perform this task....

"Bring me the FRESH corpse of a paladin! Not too dead this time, my pets!"

He then casts a curse, The Need to Feed. Each day if PC doesn't feed on the flesh of a good alignment NPC, STR+1, CON -1. When you get to 0 Con you die for good.

Need to Feed .
Lvl 8 evil necromancer only
Duration - Until quest complete or caster killed.
Cast on corpse of dead PC.
Adds infectious bite attack, which spreads Need to Feed (disease resistant). If infected, NPC becomes undead servant of biter when killed (less 0 HP)

+1 STR, -1 CON (irreversible) each day without successful bite.
PC no longer needs food or drink
Converts alignment to evil (reversible)
Converts Paladins into Fallen (reversible)
Cannot resist charm and other mental spells of the one that cast it on you.
Any attempt to attack master results in an irresistible stun.

....
Or....

Born Again
Lvl 8 good cleric
Duration: until quest complete or caster dies.
Quest must honor God. Often return relic or the like.
Cast on corpse of dead

Effects
Raise dead
Adds attack. Must have less 0 HP. Resist mental. Spreads Born Again. NPC becomes servant.

Each day you do not successfully spread...
-1 INT, +1 CHA bards and sorcerer
+1 INT, -1 CHA wizards
+1 WIS, -1 CHA all wisdom classes
Ect.
* Randomize for multiple class
PC requires special food, drink as defined by caster gods.

...

So you can play a more dangerous game while still leaving big problems if someone dies or even a complete wipeout

And DM can use to redirect a party. They wiped because in the wrong place for their level. Send them on a quest somewhere closer to what the party can handle.
 

What do people feel about these powers? Do they bring back some of the deadly feel of early editions and add some much needed jeopardy. Or are they arbitrary and unfair?

My players are aware that these effects exist since we’ve been discussing rules. One of the PCs is an orc and we went over how her relentless endurance differs from death ward. So they know, intellectually, they exist. But for a particular encounter with such a risk, I might hint at it and let them decide from there. Otherwise, I think they’re fair game.
 

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