D&D 5E Exhaustion for old 1e undead level drain

[Lanefan]

If I recall correctly, you play 1st edition or 2nd? Well, in 5ed, they removed level Draining for good reasons.

It was originally weakened in 3e then removed outright in 4e, I think. 5e just stayed the 4e course in this regard.

If I were playing 1st or 2nd edition, of course I would keep level draining. But different editions have different takes on undead. 5ed is a bit weak on that side, thus this thread.

The goal is how to make undead more dangerous in 5ed without denaturing the game so much that it is no longer 5ed in philosophy. That is not achieve by going back to level draining.

Where to become something I'd want to play/run 5e's philosophy would have to change significantly.

And just to be clear, in the previous I was applying the rules of level drain with utter ruthlessness. I had a group that survived a horde of vampires going from level 18 to level 7... and unfortunately for them, they did not have access to restoration spells so in essence, they restarted their characters with strong equipment but low levels. To each editions its own.

While I've never whacked a group from 18th to 7th (hell, I've never had a group get anywhere near 18th in the first place!) I too have removed numerous levels from characters over time.

 

[Voadam]

Came across this here - fantastic idea - makes undead scary again....

so in my campaign in my game, wights and spectres incur one level exhaustion, while wraiths and vampires incur TWO levels of exhaustion. Exhaustion is treatable with Lesser Restoration initially, but if a victim loses more than two levels of exhaustion, they’ll need a Greater Restoration to be cured.

Specters in 5e are basically incorporeal skeletons, low-level low-CR ghosts. I would caution against giving them glass cannon attacks when a wraith can have a swarm of specter minions they spawned attack somebody and with bounded accuracy have a decent shot of a bunch of hits out of proportion for their CR threat.

It is not like 0e-4e where Spectres were top tier incorporeal undead just below vampires.

 

[Voadam]

It was originally weakened in 3e then removed outright in 4e, I think. 5e just stayed the 4e course in this regard.

4e usually replaced energy drain with draining healing surges, so life energy that was not as impactful on the immediate fight (usually) but felt significantly for the adventuring day resources.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Heh, actually constitution drain sounds interesting too. How would you do. 1d4 CON per strike maybe....ouch.

Oh, I would mirror AD&D with Vampires draining 2 CON, others just 1 CON or something instead of a variable, but really anything could work.

It is a bit of a bookkeeping hassle if you actually adjust CON with Max HP dropping, etc. but not too bad I would think.

Wow - a level of exhaustion after recovering from 0hp is a really good idea

Yep, this is a pretty common house-rule to help prevent whack-a-mole (and it works IME).

The only argument against it is the death spiral effect, which a lot of groups don't want.

Never forget that you can target a character's Proficiency bonus

Which is also a good measure if you want to keep the number of hits potentially more lethal. Keep in mind the different options:

Exhaustion - 6 to kill at any level.
Proficiency bonus - only 2 to 6, depending on level.
HD - only 1 (yikes!) but up to 20 (wow!), depending on level.
CON - minimum 8(ish), but up to 20 at any level.
Max HP - anything from 6 or so up to hundreds, depending on level.

So, first question is do you want it level dependent? Then I would avoid exhaustion for the most part, unless you allow a save, in which case level and proficiency can become a factor in making the save.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

HD - only 1 (yikes!) but up to 20 (wow!), depending on level.

I'd favor going for an Exhaustion-like tiered condition. But if not, the HD method would be best, I think:

• Its pretty rare that you face level-draining creatures at super low level.
• Even at high-ish level, you can have your creature drain more than 1 HD. Could be 1d4 HD + another 1d4 if they fail a save! That would be one nasty vampire!
• It works even better with the Natural Recovery alternate rule which requires a player to spend HD to regain hp.

Proficiency level is nice, but require a lot of tracking for players, IMHO.

A mix of Con drain (ala shadows) + max HP drain can be quite nasty.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Specters in 5e are basically incorporeal skeletons, low-level low-CR ghosts. I would caution against giving them glass cannon attacks when a wraith can have a swarm of specter minions they spawned attack somebody and with bounded accuracy have a decent shot of a bunch of hits out of proportion for their CR threat.

It is not like 0e-4e where Spectres were top tier incorporeal undead just below vampires.

Point taken, though is only a DC 10 CON save to avoid consequences and (in how I'm homebrewing it) first two levels would be fixed by lesser restoration.

 

[overgeeked]

No one wants to go back to level drain.

I do. I love level draining undead. They were properly scary. Now it’s a few hit points damage at worst against PCs with endless pop-up healing and superhero regeneration from an 8-hour rest.

 

[Lyxen]

A mix of Con drain (ala shadows) + max HP drain can be quite nasty.

There is a reason stat damage and drain has not made the cut in 5e, because it imposes on the fly recomputation of bonuses and tracking those, which significantly complicates and slows down the game. This is why "CON Drain" has been modified into "max hit point loss", which is slightly easier to track.

As for HD loss, the problem is that they don't hurt the PC on the spot, only future recovery, so it's not really scary, unless you say something like "at 0 HD, you die" ?

 

[Casimir Liber]

There is a reason stat damage and drain has not made the cut in 5e, because it imposes on the fly recomputation of bonuses and tracking those, which significantly complicates and slows down the game. This is why "CON Drain" has been modified into "max hit point loss", which is slightly easier to track.

As for HD loss, the problem is that they don't hurt the PC on the spot, only future recovery, so it's not really scary, unless you say something like "at 0 HD, you die" ?

good point, which is why I guess I like exhaustion as much simpler and as scary

 

[Lyxen]

good point, which is why I guess I like exhaustion as much simpler and as scary

Indeed, Exhaustion is built in the system, no additional mechanic or anything special to track, it has instant scary effects, etc.

The only difficulty is the recovery, which you addressed I think pretty well in your original post, with the only side effect that the PCs can more or less ignore normal exhaustion with healing spells, but if it's not a mechanic that you use often in your campaign it should not be a problem. The alternative is having two different types of exhaustion, cumulative, but with only the exhaustion from draining being recoverable through restoration spells.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

good point, which is why I guess I like exhaustion as much simpler and as scary

IMO, the problem with Exhaustion is that it affects martial characters much more than caster: disadvantage on skill checks, attack rolls and saves is somewhat easy to circumvent as a caster, so the chart becomes more harsh only at exhaustion level 4-ish. At least if high level slots were blocked at specific exhaustion levels, or if you had penalties regarding concentration or spell DC!

 

[DND_Reborn]

As for HD loss, the problem is that they don't hurt the PC on the spot, only future recovery, so it's not really scary, unless you say something like "at 0 HD, you die" ?

That was the idea (at 0 HD you die).

To be more precise, my idea would be to drain Hit Dice Maximum, which IS a mechanic we are using the our 5E mod, so it would carry over well to a draining feature for undead.

For example, an 8th-level PC might have 8 HD. He has already spent 3 healing during the day, so has 5 /8 remaining. He is drained by a vampire and now has 5 / 6 (the 8 reduced to 6). Another drain would reduce him to 4 / 4, and so on. If the maximum HD reaches 0, he dies.

IMO, the problem with Exhaustion is that it affects martial characters much more than caster: disadvantage on skill checks, attack rolls and saves is somewhat easy to circumvent as a caster, so the chart becomes more harsh only at exhaustion level 4-ish. At least if high level slots were blocked at specific exhaustion levels, or if you had penalties regarding concentration or spell DC!

Yeah, which is why we eventually dropped the level of exhaustion at 0 HP house-rule... even considering our Endurance rule (your CON mod gave you "extra free levels of exhaustion", so with CON 16 you could take 3 levels before suffering negative effects on the 4th level).

The PCs most likely to go to 0 HP were the ones more affected by the exhaustion. Half speed at level 2 was restricted mobility a lot, which martials need. And of course level 3 with disadvantage on attacks and saves was harsh. And half maximum HP was brutal.

Sure, casters had some issues with them, but not as much.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

For consideration, I'll just toss in how I've handled Level Drain since the late 80's or very early 90's.

Life Energy Levels
Every PLAYER CHARACTER (or select NPC's) has a "LEL". It is equal to their Level. When hit by a level drain, that level drain comes from that LEL number. Think of it like 'HPs for Level Drain'. When those LEL's are reduced to BELOW 0, the PC looses an actual level. His/her LEL is then re-set at his/her new level.
..
LEL's recover at the rate of 1 per full day of rest. A bonus LEL can be recovered that day if the PC has been at least moderately devoted to the gods or other Outer Planes creatures of significant power, like Demon Lords, Elemental Lords, Arch-Devils, unique entities like Primus or the Cat Lord, etc. The PC must perform a specific ritual that they can learn from various sources; ancient texts, 9th+ level priests/paladins, sages, etc. Once learned, the PC can use it forever more (eg: it's not a 'spell'...you can do it if you have the appropriate stuff; think of it like "eating your veggies...but for your soul"). The cost varies a little, based on material costs of the needed sacrifices/etc, but averages to be about 100gp to 300gp per day (1d6x50gp). This cost is fixed when the PC learns that particular ritual! This means they CAN learn a cheaper version...if they can find it.
..
If/when a PC looses all their LEL's and looses a REAL Level, that is handled as per the normal AD&D rules; a Restoration spell is needed, or Wish, etc. If a Real Level is then returned (say, via Restoration), then the characters LEL is fully restored to that regained level (e.g., Level 9 PC gets dropped to Level 8 and looses some LELS in the process, down to 3 LEL; he gets a Restoration spell cast on him; he jumps back up to his Real Level of 9th again, and his LEL is instantly reset to the full LEL 9 ).
..

And that's how I handle Level Drain. In a nutshell. It does two things: Keeps the soul-crushing fear of powerful undead... keeps the very special nature of Clerics and high-level Paladins as very special indeed!... and allows for the recovery of LEL to be integrated into the campaigns actual play and lore, allowing for the "powers of the multiverse" and their worship to actually get some air-time during the roleplaying session (in stead of just the typical lip service).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Casimir Liber]

IMO, the problem with Exhaustion is that it affects martial characters much more than caster: disadvantage on skill checks, attack rolls and saves is somewhat easy to circumvent as a caster, so the chart becomes more harsh only at exhaustion level 4-ish. At least if high level slots were blocked at specific exhaustion levels, or if you had penalties regarding concentration or spell DC!

This is a fair point, but given the collaborative nature of the party unit as a whole, the spellcasters are gonna feel distinctly uncomfortable if all the frontline fighters are compromised. Not a perfect solution though.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

This is a fair point, but given the collaborative nature of the party unit as a whole, the spellcasters are gonna feel distinctly uncomfortable if all the frontline fighters are compromised. Not a perfect solution though.

Agreed. I dont think there's is a great need to look further than the Exhaustion mechanic if we want to keep it simple.

 

[Gadget]

I like the Exhaustion solution as I've often felt that 5e has underutilized the mechanic. I also feel that Lesser Restoration should restore a level of Exhaustion, as it makes not quite as punishing and seems incongruous that you can recover from death (Revivify 3rd level spell) easier than Exhaustion (Greater Restoration 5th level spell). It does have the problem of affecting martial characters more than spell casters though.

I could see hit dice being reduced as well, but that seems like more of a delayed penalty with less immediate effect.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I like the Exhaustion solution as I've often felt that 5e has underutilized the mechanic. I also feel that Lesser Restoration should restore a level of Exhaustion, as it makes not quite as punishing and seems incongruous that you can recover from death (Revivify 3rd level spell) easier than Exhaustion (Greater Restoration 5th level spell). It does have the problem of affecting martial characters more than spell casters though.

I could see hit dice being reduced as well, but that seems like more of a delayed penalty with less immediate effect.

yeah, having lesser restoration recover 1 level of exhaustion and greater restoration recover all of them would make more sense.

 

[DND_Reborn]

yeah, having lesser restoration recover 1 level of exhaustion and greater restoration recover all of them would make more sense.

I can agree with others on this, too.

 

[Composer99]

In my Fantasy Heartbreaker, I have 21 points of exhaustion; you die at 21. Every 2 points of exhaustion is a "level" of exhaustion, in that that's how often it causes a change in PC status. And some of the status changes do impact casters more.

This thread had inspired me to use this as a substitute for classic undead level drain. Taking a half dozen points of exhaustion in a fight would be immediately impactful without necessarily being instantly fatal.

Also, it fits with a goal of streamlining a bit - sure, the exhaustion mechanic isn't as streamlined, but the game as a whole is with one less mechanical subsystem (and one less finicky thing to track).

 

[Jack Daniel]

I think I've tried every alternative to level drain under the sun. None of them have ever worked right though. In the end, I just went back to by-the-book level drain — though I do take some of the sting out of it by letting clerics reverse level drain via normal healing magic (at the added cost of exhausting both cleric and patient for a couple of weeks that they both have to spend bedridden).