D&D 5E (2014) Expanding spells capabilities with upcasting

[Li Shenron]

Last session I cast Detect Magic while in a Wizard's mansion, lots of magic kept showing up, and each time I spent my action (though we were out of combat so it hardly mattered) to see the auras and identify the school of magic, but not the actual spells.

This reminded me how I thought before about some design space left unused with regards to spells that could have improved effects if upcasted. 5e has this wonderful mechanic of spending a higher than necessary level slot to boost a spell, and lots of spells deal more damage, more healing, last longer or affect more targets; many spells otherwise cannot be upcast.

I am looking here to see if any DM has expanded the use of some spells that normally don't have a "cast at higher level" option by allowing it, but I interested in additional functional effects, not in numerical boosts.

For example with regards to Detect Magic this could mean upcasting to identify the exact spells or effects, and then maybe upcasting even more to know additional information.

Another spell I have which could be expanded is Clairvoyance which allows to either see or hear but not both simultaneously; upcasting by one level could allow both, and then why not upcasting further could add darkvision, blindsight and finally truesight.

Anyone already doing this sort of thing?

 

[aco175]

Is there a balance with upcasting vs just making something a new spell? Some spells feel like they are not used that much and adding something allows the spell to be more useful. Detect Magic seems like something handwaved a lot and having it be more useful works. Something like Fireball, which is already upcastable, but allow it to change damage type instead might be more like a new spell.

I can also see having too many things just be a new spell being too much to track or want to make. Fireball would be more useful if I could cast it as a 4th level spell and make it deal cold damage. This makes my caster not feel nerfed if we enter the fire giant lair and half my spells do not deal damage. It becomes a tradeoff instead. It might also become just a game of figuring what type of damage to use best and then swapping to that.

 

[DEFCON 1]

We do a lot of what one might call "narrative upcasting"... where we create effects we need for the situation in the roleplay at hand, and spend our various abilities to power them (spells or features or whatnot). And we will explain how our spells and features are "manipulated" to create the effects. Basically the same format players come with to justify the use of a skill for a situation that normally might call for a different one (why a PC might use STR for their Intimidation check rather than CHA being the standard example).

Doing this allows players to advance the story we are engaged with without being stuck not having the "exact" power needed to do the off-brand action we are trying. For example, in our game we had a situation where ghosts and spirits were coming out of the mirrors in an estate. None of us had a specific ability that would allow us to physically put our hands on and push an intangible creature, so I "made one up" by having my paladin spend a use of Lay On Hands and a Smite Evil together to create a "Good" aura and barrier versus these undead ghosts to "push" them back as though we were two magnets flipped against each other.

The DM loved the idea, I was spending two important uses of my features to accomplish it, so he was quite happy to let this effect work. Because narratively it made sense and was a cool way to deal with our issue (rather than just repetitive fights against multiple ghosts over and over.)

Solving issues narratively but using feature uses to power them make for much more interesting results in my opinion and make the game more fun (and less a board game).

 

[MarkB]

The detect magic example actually feels a little awkward. Half the time either you'll be upcasting it expecting to see lots of effects only to find that there's nothing there worth that level of extra detail, or you'll be casting it at 1st level, finding that there is stuff you need more info on, and then having to expend an additional higher level spell slot to recast it at the higher level.

 

[Rabulias]

Upcasting is one of my favorite elements of 5e, but it sometimes feels like it could do more and/or be better. I would love to hear other upcasting options and ideas that others use.

The detect magic example actually feels a little awkward. Half the time either you'll be upcasting it expecting to see lots of effects only to find that there's nothing there worth that level of extra detail, or you'll be casting it at 1st level, finding that there is stuff you need more info on, and then having to expend an additional higher level spell slot to recast it at the higher level.

I have sometimes thought detect magic should be a cantrip, but it only tells the caster "something is magical within 60 feet of you." It would not show auras or reveal the strengths or schools of the magic. I would also make the cantrip take a bit of time to cast and/or have some component cost to prevent it from being "always on." With such a cantrip in place, an upcastable 1st level reveal magic would work. Any thoughts?

 

[Li Shenron]

The detect magic example actually feels a little awkward. Half the time either you'll be upcasting it expecting to see lots of effects only to find that there's nothing there worth that level of extra detail, or you'll be casting it at 1st level, finding that there is stuff you need more info on, and then having to expend an additional higher level spell slot to recast it at the higher level.

Yeah, which made me also think it would be interesting to allow a sort of deferred upcasting i.e. if you're not satisfied with the 1st slot version results, change to 2nd slot on the fly. But this is beyond the original question.

 

[MarkB]

I have sometimes thought detect magic should be a cantrip, but it only tells the caster "something is magical within 60 feet of you." It would not show auras or reveal the strengths or schools of the magic. I would also make the cantrip take a bit of time to cast and/or have some component cost to prevent it from being "always on." With such a cantrip in place, an upcastable 1st level reveal magic would work. Any thoughts?

It certainly has possibilities. You could even build the upcast into the cantrip - i.e. "expend a spell slot to reveal more information about the auras within range", with a description of what level of information each level of slot reveals.

 

[Silam]

The detect magic example actually feels a little awkward. Half the time either you'll be upcasting it expecting to see lots of effects only to find that there's nothing there worth that level of extra detail, or you'll be casting it at 1st level, finding that there is stuff you need more info on, and then having to expend an additional higher level spell slot to recast it at the higher level.

Spot on. The existing mechanics are indeed awkward in this case. To me this brings up one of two interpretations:

1. The existing mechanics are fine, and this is a bad use of them. Instead of leaning on upcasting, lean on something else (e.g., let the caster spend more time / more actions to learn more, rather than having them spend higher slots).

OR

2. The mechanics have a gap and new / better mechanics could help. For example, maybe there could be a notion of "delayed upcasting". If you have a spell with upcasting potential that has a non-instantaneous duration, maybe on each round you could choose to begin upcasting it. The big question then is: when you do finally decide to upcast it, what should it cost? If you already spent a 1st level slot, but you now want to reach for the effect gated by upcasting with a 2nd level slot, should you pay for the 2nd level slot and that’s it? Or should you pay the 2nd level slot and "get back" the 1st level slot you originally spent? And what about the duration? Should the original casting’s clock keep ticking, or should the duration be renewed as of the time of the 2nd (up)casting? Or should it be even better than that and let the 1st casting’s timer run its full course and then tack on the 2nd casting’s duration right after that with no interruption?

 

[Stormonu]

The "at higher levels" section of the spell doesn't lend to taking up too much space - I've done some expansion but its usually extra targets or more damage. Generally, if it adds a whole new effect, I'd just make a higher level spell.

And therein lies the rub; if upcasting gives extra effects you are giving casters extra free spells to their Spells Known and metamagic that bypasses Sorcerer's spell point usage.

 

[Vael]

I'd have a simpler effect on Detect Magic, when you use a 3rd level or higher slot the spell no longer needs concentration and the duration increases to an hour.