Homebrew Feedback Request: Hope/Fear mechanic for 5e

[OB1]

Looking to get some feedback from my fellow EnWorlders as I develop a Hope/Fear mechanic (ala Daggerheart) to slot into 5e games (will work for D&D but my goal is to use it in Neon Odyssey when it comes out). While Daggerheart overall didn't work for me as a system, I think the core concept is a great way to emulate cinematic storytelling (which is what I go for in my games). I try to keep my homebrew rules as small as possible, while allowing them to have ripple effects through the game.

One other note, while I'm using the Hope/Fear terminology from Daggerheart here, I plan to change it for the final version of the rule, I just haven't landed on what to call it yet and am open to feedback.

Goal: Provide a visible token system that PCs and DMs use to influence the game narrative and also builds tension that is gained through the exploration/social pillars of the game.

Mechanic: Skill check rolls now use 2d10 instead of 1d20. Players designate one die hope and one die fear. When rolling a skill check if the hope die is larger, PC gains one hope, if fear die is larger, DM gains one fear. If doubles are rolled, a check that is successful earns 1 hope for each PC while a check that is unsuccessful earns the DM fear equal to the number of PCs.

Spending Fear and Hope: PCs and DM can spend fear and hope by declaring their use prior to ANY roll, along with the quantiy they would like to spend. Then, they roll that number of d6s along with the regular dice of the roll and add it to the result (the d6s increase one size at each tier of play). Yes, by any roll that includes damage dice, healing dice or any other roll in the game.

That's the core rule, and I'd love feedback on just that part. However, there are 4 additional rules I am strongly considering right off the bat.

Long Rest - When the PCs decide to take a long rest, they lose half of their hope tokens unless they are resting in a designated 'safe' spot such as their bastion, a safe inn, or similar location.

Short Rest - A PC can spend 2 Hope to gain the benefits of a short rest in 5 minutes.

Combat - If the DM initiates combat that isn't immediately preceded by a failed skill check, the DM loses half of her fear tokens. (Strongly considering this to just be any time the DM 'shoots first'. I want the DM using their own Fear tokens outside of combat, rather than hoarding them to use in combat).

Special DM use of fear - A DM can spend 2 fear to instantly recharge a monster ability.

 

[Stormonu]

Don't know how much this will end up being noticeable in game, but going from d20 to 2d10 will go from an even distribution to a bell curve. Higher numbers will be slightly more difficult to obtain. Those bonus die on hope rolls might be needed just to succeed at rolls that would normally be easier with a straight d20 - success/fail rate would be something I'd closely watch the first few sessions.

I'm guessing you will still be rolling the d20 as DM, as in Daggerheart when opponents attack?

Non-combat wise, you may want to establish a Fear spend for the DM to active a perilous situation (such as a random encounter or a complication to a scene).

Overall, I think it's a good ideal - the Hope/Fear mechanic fascinates me.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

Some unanswered mechanical questions: How does this interact with advantage and disadvantage? Does reliable talent affect his? How does it interact with rerolls from heroic inspiration? Does this mean that halfling luck no longer affects skill rolls? How does this interact with passive abilities (perception is the most common), or does that not count as skill use? If a skill roll cannot fail (someone with a +8 making a DC10 skill check, for example) is the skill roll still rolled to generate hope and fear? Are any skill rolls considered unimportant enough to not generate hope and fear, or are things like background history checks ('do I remember the name of this guy, which isn't really going to matter but I'm interested enough to ask about') exempt from hope/fear?

The amount of hope/fear generated seems like it's going to vary a lot. In some adventures, you might only have a few skill checks, while something like infiltrating a prison could generate dozens along the way. Each door and cell that needs to be unlocked, each time you try to passyourself off as someone authorized to be there, and each time you do a search would generate a hope or fear.

 

[OB1]

@Dessert Nomad
Advantage/Disadvantage - Runs the same, roll twice and take highest/lowest
Reliable talent - Hope/fear generated off die roll, can still replace lower than 9 with 10 for final result
Passive Abilities - Don't count as skill check
Cannot Fail - In general, I don't ask for skill checks if the outcome isn't in doubt. If I did ask for one (perhaps I didn't remember that someone had a +8 on a DC10 check) I would count the result for hope/fear
Unimportant skill rolls - I don't ask for checks if the result is unimportant, I'll ask the player if they think they would know.

This system is def tailored to my style, which tends to have several sessions of low combat, high exploration/social pillar sessions that result in players comitting to a mission where typically combat comes to the front for those sessions. So might have 50-80 skill checks over a couple non mission sessions building up a dice pool for the combat session. Players of course may spend some of that hope during social/exploration pillars to get better outcomes prior to mission time, or they may be farming hope because they know they've got a tough mission coming up. All are fine with me.

@Stormonu yes DM rolls d20 for everything. PCs still roll d20 for attack rolls and saving throws. I've been thinking about the complications thing. As per the above, I tend to run my games in two 'modes' and I think it could be intersting if I had to spend Fear to launch a combat in Mission mode (rather than costing half of my fear if I shoot first). Also thinking about spending fear to bring in reinforcements to a combat. Ultimately, I'm back and forth about how the DM spends fear. On one hand I like keeping it very simple, but on the other, I want to make sure that the DM spending fear feels fair to the players (ie not loading up 10 fear on a single damage roll to one player). This is the part I think I'm going to have to playtest the most with some one shots with my players before I commit.

 

[Stormonu]

@Dessert Nomad
Advantage/Disadvantage - Runs the same, roll twice and take highest/lowest
Reliable talent - Hope/fear generated off die roll, can still replace lower than 9 with 10 for final result
Passive Abilities - Don't count as skill check
Cannot Fail - In general, I don't ask for skill checks if the outcome isn't in doubt. If I did ask for one (perhaps I didn't remember that someone had a +8 on a DC10 check) I would count the result for hope/fear
Unimportant skill rolls - I don't ask for checks if the result is unimportant, I'll ask the player if they think they would know.

This system is def tailored to my style, which tends to have several sessions of low combat, high exploration/social pillar sessions that result in players comitting to a mission where typically combat comes to the front for those sessions. So might have 50-80 skill checks over a couple non mission sessions building up a dice pool for the combat session. Players of course may spend some of that hope during social/exploration pillars to get better outcomes prior to mission time, or they may be farming hope because they know they've got a tough mission coming up. All are fine with me.

@Stormonu yes DM rolls d20 for everything. PCs still roll d20 for attack rolls and saving throws. I've been thinking about the complications thing. As per the above, I tend to run my games in two 'modes' and I think it could be intersting if I had to spend Fear to launch a combat in Mission mode (rather than costing half of my fear if I shoot first). Also thinking about spending fear to bring in reinforcements to a combat. Ultimately, I'm back and forth about how the DM spends fear. On one hand I like keeping it very simple, but on the other, I want to make sure that the DM spending fear feels fair to the players (ie not loading up 10 fear on a single damage roll to one player). This is the part I think I'm going to have to playtest the most with some one shots with my players before I commit.

You might want to limit the DM's Fear spend to 1 + number of players, or up to PB.

Oddball question - do you have any plans for interactions with bardic inspiration, bless and other spells - mostly when dealing with the hope/fear aspect. You could, for example, create or modify abilities so that they only reroll one of the two dice - for example some use of Intimidation that would reroll the Fear die, or beacon of hope giving rerolls of the Hope die.

How will this affect the Lucky feat and its ilk?

 

[OB1]

You might want to limit the DM's Fear spend to 1 + number of players, or up to PB.

Oddball question - do you have any plans for interactions with bardic inspiration, bless and other spells - mostly when dealing with the hope/fear aspect. You could, for example, create or modify abilities so that they only reroll one of the two dice - for example some use of Intimidation that would reroll the Fear die, or beacon of hope giving rerolls of the Hope die.

How will this affect the Lucky feat and its ilk?

Mmmm, that's a good thought on the Fear spend limit for DM. I think that really helps prevent the DM from hoarding fear for one alpha strike (though I'm fine with PCs doing the same). I already have infinite dragons as DM, and being able to potentially spend 30 Fear on one strike seems like overkill.

Oddball wise, my instinct is to keep the mechanic super compact, so I probably won't do things like that for my game, but I can see how that would be intersting.

For Advantage, Rerolls and the like, it will work the same as if it were a D20. You reroll or roll twice with the 2d10, but not any hope die you are spending, same as a bless or bardic on a d20 roll.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

@Dessert Nomad
Advantage/Disadvantage - Runs the same, roll twice and take highest/lowest

So you roll 4 dice, designate 2 of them hope and 2 of them fear, and on advantage take the highest of either for both the hope and fear rolls to see if you get a hope or fear? Or does advantage mean you take the highest hope and lowest fear roll?

Reliable talent - Hope/fear generated off die roll, can still replace lower than 9 with 10 for final result
Cannot Fail - In general, I don't ask for skill checks if the outcome isn't in doubt. If I did ask for one (perhaps I didn't remember that someone had a +8 on a DC10 check) I would count the result for hope/fear

This seems really weird to me. Let's say PCs are trying to infiltrate a prison building. When they encounter guards, they need a DC 15 (regular guard) or DC 20 (officer) deception check to pass as if they are in the building. There are locked doors, if the party doesn't have a key then they need to have someone pick DC20 locks to get between rooms, while also making a DC 15 stealth check to avoid anyone noticing that picking a lock instead of using a key.

If the PCs need to pass by 6 regular guards and one officer and pick 10 locks to get around to a prisoner, most characters will generate 27 rolls for possible hope or fear. That's 1/3 to 1/2 of the 50-80 skill checks you expect between combats.

However if I take an 7th level rogue who's built as an infiltrator with 18 DEX, 12 CHA and expertise in deception, sleight of hand, and stealth, I have +10 on sleight of hand checks, +10 on stealth checks, and +7 on deception checks, plus I have reliable talent so never roll less than a 10. If I take on the infiltration mission, I only have one roll that can fail, the deception check on the officer, so I only have one hope/fear generator, and I might not even have that (if I have a luckstone for +1 to skill checks, and get guidance and bardic inspiration for the roll I will automatically make the DC20 check). So the rogue who's really good at this stuff will have only have 0-1 interactions that can generate hope or fear.

 

[OB1]

So you roll 4 dice, designate 2 of them hope and 2 of them fear, and on advantage take the highest of either for both the hope and fear rolls to see if you get a hope or fear? Or does advantage mean you take the highest hope and lowest fear roll?


This seems really weird to me. Let's say PCs are trying to infiltrate a prison building. When they encounter guards, they need a DC 15 (regular guard) or DC 20 (officer) deception check to pass as if they are in the building. There are locked doors, if the party doesn't have a key then they need to have someone pick DC20 locks to get between rooms, while also making a DC 15 stealth check to avoid anyone noticing that picking a lock instead of using a key.

If the PCs need to pass by 6 regular guards and one officer and pick 10 locks to get around to a prisoner, most characters will generate 27 rolls for possible hope or fear. That's 1/3 to 1/2 of the 50-80 skill checks you expect between combats.

However if I take an 7th level rogue who's built as an infiltrator with 18 DEX, 12 CHA and expertise in deception, sleight of hand, and stealth, I have +10 on sleight of hand checks, +10 on stealth checks, and +7 on deception checks, plus I have reliable talent so never roll less than a 10. If I take on the infiltration mission, I only have one roll that can fail, the deception check on the officer, so I only have one hope/fear generator, and I might not even have that (if I have a luckstone for +1 to skill checks, and get guidance and bardic inspiration for the roll I will automatically make the DC20 check). So the rogue who's really good at this stuff will have only have 0-1 interactions that can generate hope or fear.

For adv/dis you are rolling two sets and picking one or the other.

Reliable talent isn’t a situation where the outcome isn’t in doubt in the sense I mean, so the rogue still rolls.

 

[Stormonu]

So you roll 4 dice, designate 2 of them hope and 2 of them fear, and on advantage take the highest of either for both the hope and fear rolls to see if you get a hope or fear? Or does advantage mean you take the highest hope and lowest fear roll?


This seems really weird to me. Let's say PCs are trying to infiltrate a prison building. When they encounter guards, they need a DC 15 (regular guard) or DC 20 (officer) deception check to pass as if they are in the building. There are locked doors, if the party doesn't have a key then they need to have someone pick DC20 locks to get between rooms, while also making a DC 15 stealth check to avoid anyone noticing that picking a lock instead of using a key.

If the PCs need to pass by 6 regular guards and one officer and pick 10 locks to get around to a prisoner, most characters will generate 27 rolls for possible hope or fear. That's 1/3 to 1/2 of the 50-80 skill checks you expect between combats.

However if I take an 7th level rogue who's built as an infiltrator with 18 DEX, 12 CHA and expertise in deception, sleight of hand, and stealth, I have +10 on sleight of hand checks, +10 on stealth checks, and +7 on deception checks, plus I have reliable talent so never roll less than a 10. If I take on the infiltration mission, I only have one roll that can fail, the deception check on the officer, so I only have one hope/fear generator, and I might not even have that (if I have a luckstone for +1 to skill checks, and get guidance and bardic inspiration for the roll I will automatically make the DC20 check). So the rogue who's really good at this stuff will have only have 0-1 interactions that can generate hope or fear.

In the case of sneaking around, I'd normally have one roll for the PC (every 10 minutes or so) and just compare it to the guard's Passive Perception, so that sequence would only generate 1 hope/fear. (On a failure, probably have an immediate roll off - unless it was a critical failure one of the guards noticed and now you've got to specifically deal with them). I might not have the failure crop up against the first guard either - might use the "failed by X" to determine how far they got before someone noticed - fail by 1 might be the last guard, fail by 2 may be the 2nd to last guard, and fail by 5 or more might be at the first guard. After they resolve interacting with the guard they failed against, start the process over, but they're getting a little deeper each time unless they decide to abandon/back out.

If the example infiltrator did the take 10 and no one could beat it (and no roll needed) I personally wouldn't have it generate hope or fear - it just happens. If someone could beat the roll, just handle it like the 1st part.

That might not be raw 5E (though I kinda think the "1 roll for 10 minutes is for Stealth), but that's how I would do it so it's not constant rolls and inevitable failure at some point inside the prison.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

For adv/dis you are rolling two sets and picking one or the other.

Interesting, I didn't think of pairing the dice like that. And you're forced to pick based on highest/lowest total, on advantage you can't choose to take the lower total if it gives you a hope?

Reliable talent isn’t a situation where the outcome isn’t in doubt in the sense I mean, so the rogue still rolls.

I'd think that 'isn't in doubt' means 'even with the lowest roll possible will succeed', like picking a DC20 lock with a +11 bonus and any roll below 10 counts as a 10. Do you mean something like 'easy enough that no one would need to make a roll to do it' or 'easy enough that no one proficient would need to make a roll to do it' instead? You said earlier that someone with a +8 making a DC 10 roll would count as 'outcome isn't in doubt'.

The thing that seems weird to me is that it seems like this can produce 'the better a PC is at their skills, the fewer hope/fear rolls they make' which I'm not sure is what you want. And it might lead to 'have the second best guy try this stuff, we'll just deal with a failure but farm more hope' which again seems like an odd thing to encourage mechanically.