Shadowdark Finally Played Shadowdark

[Retreater]

The fighter's Grit ability can be applied to any sort of combat stunt or maneuver that the player wants to attempt.

Yeah. The player had no concept that combat stunts or maneuvers existed. And honestly, some suggestions in the book wouldn't be a bad idea.

You must have been running a really terrible adventure of there was nothing described in the environment that could get players thinking creatively. Or would they not think of throwing wasps nests at enemies unless that option was explicitly stated?

There was exactly no dungeon dressing or description at all, which made it confusing for me to run. It was a very bare bones 5-room dungeon with a pamphlet format.

The ironic part is that AD&D 2e was essentially the same dungeon crawling mechanics as 1e, but it kept claiming to be a heroic, narrative-style game. Which it wasn't. I'm not saying that various supplements and settings didn't do their best to try and make it play like that. But it never did a good job of it. We were just very young when we first played it and didn't know any better (I started a couple of years before 2e's release, with BECMI and AD&D).

Yeah. I don't think I played it that way. Most XP awards were for story reasons (not gold). We rarely used dungeons - maybe small sites with 3-5 areas.

 

[Keldryn]

Yeah. The player had no concept that combat stunts or maneuvers existed. And honestly, some suggestions in the book wouldn't be a bad idea.

The book is definitely very light on examples. I love how terse it is, and how it completely lacks walls of text. However, there are some casualties of the two-page spread per concept approach, and examples are among them. The game does seem to assume some level of experience with old school play.

There was exactly no dungeon dressing or description at all, which made it confusing for me to run. It was a very bare bones 5-room dungeon with a pamphlet format.

Yeah, those type of adventures generally need some degree of fleshing out before play (or coming up with those details on the spot).

Most published adventures play much better with some degree of modification.

Yeah. I don't think I played it that way. Most XP awards were for story reasons (not gold). We rarely used dungeons - maybe small sites with 3-5 areas.

I honestly can't remember if we still played with XP for treasure when we switched to 2e. The values suggested in the DMG for class and individual awards are really low (compared to combat XP), and it gives all of two paragraphs on story awards without giving any actual useful guidance whatsoever.

And that's the point I was making. Many of us played 2e with an emphasis on heroic action and storytelling. But it was in spite of the system, which offered virtually no mechanical support for that style of play. The core mechanics weren't different from AD&D 1e in any meaningful way, still rooted in dungeon crawling. Except it started to de-emphasize the procedures (exploration turns, etc) that supported the original style of play.

Honestly, there's only version of D&D that really supports that heroic action, more narrative style of play that 2e wanted to be...

But back to Shadowdark. You could adapt it to make it better support a more heroic style of play:

PULP MODE
• There are no maximum luck tokens a player can have.
• Players start every session with 1d4 luck tokens.
• You can use a luck token to turn a hit into a critical hit.
• You can use a luck token to take an extra action.
• You can use a luck token to force the GM to reroll a roll.

MOMENTUM MODE
• You have advantage on checks to repeat an action you failed if you try the exact same action again on your next turn.
• Damage dice explode. If you roll maximum damage on a die, roll again and add it to the total. There is no cap.

You could give each player a fixed number of luck tokens at the start of each session instead of having them roll.

For survivability, you could could have 1st level characters start with max HP (a common house rule, although it devalues the dwarf's feature somewhat). Alternatively, you could allow characters to start with a fixed value in addition to the standard die roll + CON modifier. This could be the full 4/6/8 hit point die, or perhaps half of that.

You can give out XP for completing quests or as story awards, instead of for treasure. I've been giving out 1 XP each time they confirm a rumor (whether true or false) for a while, and I've started giving out quest/story XP as well. Playing in the City of Masks doesn't generally yield as much treasure as a dungeon, but they discover a lot of information about various factions and activities in the city.

Cursed Scroll 6 (City of Masks) has expanded downtime activities where characters can improve their abilities fairly significantly.

 

[zottel]

Yeah. The player had no concept that combat stunts or maneuvers existed. And honestly, some suggestions in the book wouldn't be a bad idea.


There was exactly no dungeon dressing or description at all, which made it confusing for me to run. It was a very bare bones 5-room dungeon with a pamphlet format.

Yeah. I don't think I played it that way. Most XP awards were for story reasons (not gold). We rarely used dungeons - maybe small sites with 3-5 areas.

Would be interesting what the adventure was, might shed some light on the issues.

 

[Retreater]

Would be interesting what the adventure was, might shed some light on the issues.

I don't want to spread hate on the publisher or writer. The publisher actually visits these forums from time to time and is a fairly well known YouTube personality. I doubt anyone has the adventure to compare because it's a free, pamphlet adventure to promote an upcoming product line. I don't see it available for purchase outside of their upcoming Kickstarter.

 

[Retreater]

For survivability, you could could have 1st level characters start with max HP (a common house rule, although it devalues the dwarf's feature somewhat). Alternatively, you could allow characters to start with a fixed value in addition to the standard die roll + CON modifier. This could be the full 4/6/8 hit point die, or perhaps half of that.

Surprisingly, no characters died. They were 2nd level, so there was a bit of a buffer for HP. All of them rolled pretty well. Also, we had 6 characters, so damage was spread out. I don't think anyone got too damaged, honestly.

The main system issues were ...

• The spellcasters losing spells and feeling they had nothing left to do
• Turns when everyone (heroes and monsters) missed and nothing happened

The main adventure issues were ...

• Scant room descriptions giving few tools to the GM or players
• "Loop" design in the dungeon that essentially made exploration meaningless
• Absence of cool treasure

 

[Micah Sweet]

Pulp Mode might make the experience better for you and your players. Being able to have multiple luck tokens (and the DM giving them out more freely) should make players less reluctant to spend them.



The fighter's Grit ability can be applied to any sort of combat stunt or maneuver that the player wants to attempt.



You must have been running a really terrible adventure of there was nothing described in the environment that could get players thinking creatively. Or would they not think of throwing wasps nests at enemies unless that option was explicitly stated?



Playing Shadowdark as a stripped down 5e is virtually guaranteed to result in a disappointing experience. It's a procedural dungeon crawler at heart; the essence old-school D&D without the clunky old-school mechanics.



It doesn't sound like they're interested in OSR style play, and fair enough, it doesn't appeal to everyone. Every RPG is going to have its own style of play, and most of them don't do a fantastic job of emulating other styles.


The ironic part is that AD&D 2e was essentially the same dungeon crawling mechanics as 1e, but it kept claiming to be a heroic, narrative-style game. Which it wasn't. I'm not saying that various supplements and settings didn't do their best to try and make it play like that. But it never did a good job of it. We were just very young when we first played it and didn't know any better (I started a couple of years before 2e's release, with BECMI and AD&D).

One of the things I loved the most about 2e was it was basically 1e, but more. That's what I wanted.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah. The player had no concept that combat stunts or maneuvers existed. And honestly, some suggestions in the book wouldn't be a bad idea.


There was exactly no dungeon dressing or description at all, which made it confusing for me to run. It was a very bare bones 5-room dungeon with a pamphlet format.

Yeah. I don't think I played it that way. Most XP awards were for story reasons (not gold). We rarely used dungeons - maybe small sites with 3-5 areas.

It definitely played that way for us. Like I said, 1e but more.