D&D General Fixing the Great Weapon Fighting Style

[Tigris]

For example, a PC with a Greataxe or a Greatsword and GWF is doing more damage than a PC with a longsword and Dueling, quite a bit more when you also consider the 5.5E weapon mastery and critical hits. So while the math will show dueling is a bigger damage increase if you assume a normal hit, it is not more damage total.

A greataxe with great weapon feat does 6.75 damage a longsword with dueling 6.5


Meanwhile dueling can have +2 AC from a shield.


And if you are using a rapier instead of a longsword you even deal more damage than the greataxe if you consider the mastery.


The point here is, there is just really no reason to take with a greataxe the feat. Taking defense is just better since the feat does not add any considerable damage. But if you take that feat you are now just worse than the 1 handed dude with a shield and dueling. Since you only deal slightly more damage on a crit else the same and have less armor.

It is only worth taking with 1 specific weapon, unless the other feats which are way less weapon specific.

 

[Tessarael]

With light thrown weapons with nick and weapon mastery, a Fighter can throw 3 of them per turn at level 1. With say Strength 16, damage is d4 + 3 STR mod + 2 thrown weapon fighting style, average 7.5 damage, multiplied by 3 thrown and multiplied by 65% chance of hitting typically = 14.6 average damage.

However, the range on these light thrown weapons is 20/60, so either you're at long range with disadvantage that drops your average damage to 9.5, or you're opponent can close to melee with you before your next turn. So you may be limited to making full effective use at short range of the thrown weapon tactic only 1 round out of 3.

As to ranking the fighting styles, it is quite situational and dependent on build. Defense fighting style for +1 AC is good at low levels, but if I have seen builds that focus perhaps too much on tanking, where trading off less defense for better offense would be beneficial because taking down opponents faster makes a significant difference.

For mid levels, I'd suggest the priorities below from highest to lowest within each category:

To maximize melee damage:

• Two-weapon fighting to maximize melee damage dual wielding with an off-hand light nick weapon. This does more damage than using a two-handed weapon.
• If great weapon fighting gives +2 damage, best for a greatsword two-handed wielder or similar to maximize melee damage.
• Dueling for +2 damage with a one-handed weapon while using a shield off-hand to improve your AC.
• Blind fighting, situationally good if you'll be fighting invisible opponents, or if you are blinded, but there are other ways of dealing with invisibility too, and blinding is relatively rare in play in my experience.
• Unarmed fighting - take this for a multi-classed Monk grappler build, otherwise don't bother.

To maximize defense:

• Defense +1 AC for a focused tank build, at the price of lower damage output.
• Protection to impose disadvantage with your shield as a reaction on attacks on an ally within 5' until the start of your next turn.
  • This is better than defense, if you're in a bodyguard role, or will otherwise be in melee regularly with an ally next to you.
• Interception to reduce damage on a single attack by d10 + your proficiency bonus. Inferior as it applies to only 1 attack.

To maximize ranged damage:

• Archery for +2 to ranged weapon attacks at longer range.
  • Less effective for damage output at low levels vs. thrown weapon fighting, but wins out at higher levels with more attacks at longer range.
• Thrown weapon fighting for +2 damage on thrown weapon attacks, keeping in mind that you're at disadvantage to attack beyond 20' range with the light nick weapons that would make greatest use of this.

Edit: D&D 5.5E made drawing a weapon a free action as part of an attack, per the D&D 2024 Player's Handbook page 214 as part of the thrown weapon property, so this fixes the thrown weapon ammo drawing issue.

 

[CreamCloud0]

What if the answer isn't more damage, but more reach?

When I think of people excellent at the big ass melee weapons I think of them fighting from behind compatriots, or over walls and hedges.

Having an extra 5' of reach allows fun tactical choices that damage bonuses don't

if there was a fighting style that provided more reach i wouldn't want to put it on the great weapon style, great weapon already has the benefit of being the beefiest weapons available so i wouldn't double dip for them giving them reach too, make a polearm fighting style that works for spears, quarterstaves, tridents, glaives, halberds, lances and pikes.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think just making more versatile fighting styles would make the game better.

Offensive, defensive, maybe ranged (including thrown weapons).

 

[bedir than]

if there was a fighting style that provided more reach i wouldn't want to put it on the great weapon style, great weapon already has the benefit of being the beefiest weapons available so i wouldn't double dip for them giving them reach too, make a polearm fighting style that works for spears, quarterstaves, tridents, glaives, halberds, lances and pikes.

but those are also the beefy weapons - just without swords, battleaxe and great club (working from memory).
I guess eliminate Versatile from the caveats and it's the same list-ish

 

[CreamCloud0]

but those are also the beefy weapons - just without swords, battleaxe and great club (working from memory).
I guess eliminate Versatile from the caveats and it's the same list-ish

fair, but you see my point don't you? i guess it could work on just the spear, quarterstaff and trident but that feels like a little bit of a niche weapon selection.

honestly i think the weapon tables just need an extra tier and 50% of options.

 

[Lord Twig]

The math is complicated and doesn't tell the whole story because only specific weapons and in some cases specific uses qualify. There are 10 Fighting Style Feats in 5.5E, I've seen all of them in play and I think GWF is pretty close to the middle as far as those feats go. It has higher usability than many others and it has significant mathematical power.

For example, a PC with a Greataxe or a Greatsword and GWF is doing more damage than a PC with a longsword and Dueling, quite a bit more when you also consider the 5.5E weapon mastery and critical hits. So while the math will show dueling is a bigger damage increase if you assume a normal hit, it is not more damage total.

If we just wanted to look at how much it increases damage, Thrown Weapon Fighting is mathematically the most beneficial in terms of pure damage boost (+4 per turn at level 1/2 and +6 per turn with extra attack, and +8 with the Duel Wielding feat). In play though it is one of the weakest because of its restrictive design, it is situational, it has restrictive weapons to use it with and the need to carry a ton of thrown weapons and a ton of magic thrown weapons or returning weapons to get the magic boost afforded to other options at higher levels.

At different tiers different masteries are better than others. IME as far as ranking them best to worst here is how I would rank them for a campaign running level 1-20 if you are not basing character design specifically around using one type or class of weapon:

1. Blind Fighting (usable regardless of weapon, and it is situational but in those situations it is huge)
2. Defense (this is not very valuable mathematically but it always active, any weapon, any condition, any situation)
3. Interception (this is #1 if your table lets you use this on yourself and #1 in tier 1 even if they don't)
4. Two Weapon Fighting
5. Dueling
6. Great weapon Fighting (higher on a heavy melee specialist)
7. Archery (higher on a bowman specialist and higher at lower levels)
8. Unarmed Fighting (higher on a Grappler Build or Monk dip)
9. Thrown Weapon Fighting (higher at low level)
10. Protection

I am surprised by a couple of your ratings. I usually see Archery as much higher as it is a boost to all damage done with a ranged weapon. Weapon die, static bonuses, rider damage... everything.

Let's take a level 5 Ranger with an 18 Dex and Hunter's Mark using a longbow. Without the Archery style the average damage with a 65% chance to hit is: (4.5 + 4 + 3.5) x .65 = 7.8. So 15.6 per round with Extra Attack. With Archer it would be (4.5 + 4 + 3.5) x .75 = 9. Which is 18 per round. So that is just 1.2 per attack, but it just gets better as you level. At level 8 with a 20 Dex and a +1 bow it would be (5.5 + 5 + 3.5) x .7 = 9.8 vs. (5.5 + 5 + 3.5) x .8 = 11.2. Hmmm... That makes a 1.4 extra damage. Honestly not as much as I thought. Still, I think it is a good Fighting Style feat.

So if I were to rank it, I would go:
1. Blind Fighting (usable regardless of weapon, and it is situational but in those situations it is huge <- agreed, especially for a character without Darkvision)
2. Defense (always useful as long as you are wearing armor)
3. Two Weapon Fighting
4. Dueling
5. Archery
6. Protection (the Reaction defenses are good but situational and, obviously, uses your Reaction)
7. Interception (I think making the enemy miss entirely is more valuable than just reducing the damage taken, especially if there is a rider on the attack (poisoned, grappled, stunned, etc.))
8. Great weapon Fighting (just not enough of a damage boost for the feat)
9. Unarmed Fighting (higher on a Grappler Build or Monk dip <- agreed)
10. Thrown Weapon Fighting (this is great, but usually only works once in a combat)

 

[Tigris]

I think the main problem is that different weapon styles just dont make the weapons feel different. You just deal more damage with them, which is boring.


So either we make the weapon spezialization similar (just all +2 damage or so), or make the weapons feel more different.

The masteries do help here a lot better to make things feel more different. As do the "normal" feats like polearm fighter etc.



If the fighting styles are just "more damage" then at least the damage should feel different:

• Ranged: More precision
• 1 handed: Constant damage
• 2 weapon fighting: More attacks (its not now but that could be)
• great weapon fighting: Higher max damage

So it could be something for great weapon fighting like "If you roll your max weapon damage on a dice roll, roll again and add the new result to it".


On a 1d12 weapon this would be:

• X = (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11)/12 + (12 + X)/12
• so 11/12X = 6.5
• so X = 7.0909

This is still not really good, but better than before (0.59 more damage per dice instead of 0.25) and would increase also with crits and granting more burst which can at least feel cool and different to the constant damage of the 1 handed.


Edit:

• For 1d10 it would be 10/9* 5.5 = 6.11 damage so 0.61 higher
• For 2D6 it depends, either it is 6/5*7=8.4 which would again be way higher than others with 1.4 on the weapon which is already best..
• Or it would be 36/35*7= 7.2 which is almost nothing, but still higher than the 7.09 from the 1d12 so this would make the weapons more similar

The problem in any case is to have the 2D6 weapon among the others will just strangely interact with such mechanics. ANd in the case with the 1/36 chance to trigger, the fighting style really wont be worth it.

 

[bedir than]

fair, but you see my point don't you? i guess it could work on just the spear, quarterstaff and trident but that feels like a little bit of a niche weapon selection.

honestly i think the weapon tables just need an extra tier and 50% of options.

I don't really.

I think the exploration of raw damage bonuses don't match the fictions and histories that inspire the game

 

[ECMO3]

A greataxe with great weapon feat does 6.75 damage a longsword with dueling 6.5

6.75 is greater than 6.5. The math is not as straightforward as that though because of the effect of masteries, critical hits and accuracy. Cleave mastery conditionally adds another 6.75 for 13.5, nor does it consider crits which again compound the die bonus (more dice more effect of the mastery)

If you assume a straight 60% chance to hit, a +3 strength modifier and 50% chance at possibly cleave and a 5% critical hit the actual numbers are 7.7 damage for the Greataxe with GWF and Cleave and 5.9 for a Longsword with dueling. Now those numbers are going to change with the hit percentages, cleave percentages, and a different critical range, but I think what I put above is reasonable values for those and this will hold across a broad range of numbers.

Adding a Greatsword to the comparison, a Greatsword does 8 damage with GWF vs 6.5 with a longsword. Using the same 60% threshold, 5% critical and +3 strength the number for a Greatsword with Graze is 8.2 damage vs 5.9 for a longsword and dueling.

And if you are using a rapier instead of a longsword you even deal more damage than the greataxe if you consider the mastery.

Vex on a Rapier is not very useful at all in tier 1. In tier 2 it is a lot more powerful, especially on classes with extra attack. The math here is quite complicated and highly situational though.

I am not going to bother with tier 1. If we are assuming extra attack and we assume 80% of follow up attacks are on the same enemy, going again with a base 60% hit rate and base 5% crit rate and +3 strength here is what you get with extra attack in the first round of combat:

Rapier-Vex (80% chance of attacking same enemy twice, +3 strength, 60% hit, 5% crit): 13.2 damage
Greataxe-Cleave (60% hit, 50% cleave opportunity, 5% crit range, +3 strength): 14.2 damage
Greatsword-Graze (60% hit, 5% crit range, +3 strength): 15.2 damage

Going further in the combat past one round will boost the Rapier slightly, but not by enough to close that gap.

The point here is, there is just really no reason to take with a greataxe the feat. Taking defense is just better since the feat does not add any considerable damage.

If you are using a Greataxe you will get extra damage out of the GWF fighting style, if you are using a Greataxe you will get no extra damage at all out of the Dueling fighting style.

Whether you are using a Greataxe or a Longsword you will get an AC bonus out of defense if you are wearing armor. If you think it is better than GWF or dueling then why not just take it instead of these (and I think it is better than either of these fighting styles generally).

But if you take that feat you are now just worse than the 1 handed dude with a shield and dueling. Since you only deal slightly more damage on a crit else the same and have less armor.

Which PC is better or worse is highly situational and dependent on a whole slew of variables. A character with a Shield will have a higher AC than a character without one all else being equal, but they also have a lot fewer options as they do not have a hand free. They can't use any good ranged weapons effectively, it is more difficult to grapple enemies, take the utilize action or cast spells that require somatic or material components. Add to this you are doing less damage and I would strongly disagree that a character with a shield and dueling is automatically better, as matter of fact I would say the guy who is not using a shield is generally the better PC in combat.

If you are using a shield though there is a very strong case for a Sap weapon and Defense. Disadvantage is more debilitating at higher AC.

I stand by what I said, Great Weapon Fighting is about middle of the pack as far as fighting styles go. So is Dueling. The ones that really need a boost are Protection, Thrown Weapon Fighting and Unarmed Fighting.