flat footed gods?

[RUMBLETiGER]

I looked through the Deities and Demigods books and found that Bahamut, Boccob, Ehlonna, Grummish, Heironeous, Hextor, Moradin, Nerull, Obad-Hai, Pelor, St. Cuthbert, Tiamat, Vecna, Wee Jas & Yondalla all did not have at least 5 ranks in Balance. Does that mean the level 1 Grease spell cast upon those gods would make them flat footed? or a bag of marbles?

 

[Shin Okada]

Possibly. But they may just choose to become prone. Or use some other methods to move away from the place (flight, teleportation, etc.).

By the way, the stats in Deities and Demigods are, in some aspects, rather week. For example, no deity has 21+ levels in a certain class and thus caster levels are capped at 20. That is quite lame when fighting against epic-level PCs. (Of course, the special abilities granted by divine rank may complement that, especially for pre-battle preparations.)

If I were you, I will not use those stats as they are.

 

[Arrowhawk]

The whole, "no dex bonus to AC" is a ridiculously broken mechanic. Look at what the SRD says under balance:

You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

Emphasis added.

If you can't "move" to avoid a blow, then everyone would have a Dex of 0. How can someone who can't move with a Dex of 10, have a better a better AC then someone, who has a Dex of 8, who also can't move?

I would seriously recommend getting rid of the "no dex bonus to AC" rule altogether and just imposing a flat penalty on everyone whenever they are in the "no dex bonus" situation. You'd still be flat-footed, but this way everyone is penalized equally since nobody can move to avoid a blow. The other alternative is you give everyone a Dex of 0, but that might be too severe a penalty, despite actually being consistent with the described situation.

 

[emanresu]

The whole, "no dex bonus to AC" is a ridiculously broken mechanic. Look at what the SRD says under balance:

Emphasis added.

If you can't "move" to avoid a blow, then everyone would have a Dex of 0. How can someone who can't move with a Dex of 10, have a better a better AC then someone, who has a Dex of 8, who also can't move?

I would seriously recommend getting rid of the "no dex bonus to AC" rule altogether and just imposing a flat penalty on everyone whenever they are in the "no dex bonus" situation. You'd still be flat-footed, but this way everyone is penalized equally since nobody can move to avoid a blow. The other alternative is you give everyone a Dex of 0, but that might be too severe a penalty, despite actually being consistent with the described situation.

isnt there a ref save involved here? Also if the target notices the grease and tries to move half speed or less he needs no further saves or rolls, but if target tries to move faster than half speed then additional roll (s) could be required by DM, right?

 

[Buugipopuu]

That's a stupid justification and you know it. Dex 0 confers the (far worse) Helpless status, not the Flat-Footed status. "Can't move" obviously doesn't mean "is kinematically equivalent to an inanimate object".

Turning Flat-Footed into a flat penalty would make the game less balanced. Dexterity can't be your only source of AC because sooner or later you'll end up flat-footed and have nothing. In order for Dex/Dodge bonuses to be balanced against Armour/Shield/Natural bonuses, they have to be negated with roughly equal frequency. If flat-footed becomes a penalty that applies to everyone, then armour becomes much worse than Dex because now your Plate Armour is as bad off in flat-footed situations and worse off in touch attack situations, and you can mitigate a flat-footed penalty by just getting more dex, but you can't mitigate a touch attack by getting more armour.

 

[Arrowhawk]

That's a stupid justification and you know it. Dex 0 confers the (far worse) Helpless status, not the Flat-Footed status. "Can't move" obviously doesn't mean "is kinematically equivalent to an inanimate object".

Ignoring your inflammatory tone, If "you can't move to avoid a blow" then you are effectively have a dex of 0 because wait for it.... wait for it....

"....you can't move to avoid a blow."

Having a Dex of zero doesn't mean your eyes don't blink or you stop breathing. But it means "you can't move to avoid a blow." You know what else can't move to avoid a blow? My chair, my microwave, a telephone pole, etc. All these things have an effective Dex of 0. Guess what. I didn't write the rules. That's why the rule, as written, is ridiculous.

Turning Flat-Footed into a flat penalty would make the game less balanced.

Prove it? Your opinion on the matter proves nothing. Prove the game is less "balanced" by showing me stats which support your claim. Back it up with objective facts taken from hundreds of samples which prove "balance" one way or the other.

Dexterity can't be your only source of AC because sooner or later you'll end up flat-footed and have nothing.

Which would suggest the rules as written are completely ridiculous and are, to use your own words, "less balanced" with regards to Dex based characters.

In order for Dex/Dodge bonuses to be balanced against Armour/Shield/Natural bonuses, they have to be negated with roughly equal frequency.

Prove to me that in any given campaign, they are negated with equal frequency.

If flat-footed becomes a penalty that applies to everyone, then armour becomes much worse than Dex because now your Plate Armour is as bad off in flat-footed situations and worse off in touch attack situations,

Uh, by what logic? If you apply a flat penalty, you're still better off wearing armor than not wearing armor. But guess what...you've been caught flat footed. That means you should be easier to hit, no matter who you are because even someone with no dex "bonus" is considered to be able to avoid a blow better than someone who is immobile.

and you can mitigate a flat-footed penalty by just getting more dex, but you can't mitigate a touch attack by getting more armour.

You mitigate a touch attack by getting more Dex. Which means you make a decision when you build your character and you live with the consequences. In addition, you're also ignoring the larger context. This discussion really only applies to melee combat classes, since they are the ones wearing the armor and relying on AC to avoid damage. Given that context, high Dex builds, are generally low Strength builds. Low Dex builds, are usually high Strength builds (again, in the context of fighting classes) Strength based builds enjoy a tremendous combat advantage over Dex builds. I am not aware of a feat in 3.5 which allows you to turn your Dex modifier to a damage modifier. Int, Cha, maybe even Wis? Yeah, but Dex? haven't seen it. So Dex builds are taking longer to kill stuff and exposing themselves to more damage. So you've got a long way to go to prove that the current system isn't incredibly unfair to Dex-based characters.

EDIT:
And just to make sure you're not confused, when i say flat penalty, I mean like something between -1 to -4. I'm not suggesting everyone get pushed to a Dex of 0. That would be stupid, imo.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I'm not asking if the gods are weak.

I'm not asking of the flat footed mechanic is broken.

I'm asking, can a level 1 spell render a god flat footed? Yes, they could get away (fly, teleport, etc), but that's not what I'm asking.

Grease Spell, in case anyone needs the reference. Grease states that you are actively Balancing. The Balance skill states that if you have less than 5 ranks in balance, you are Flat footed while trying to balance.

As per RAW, can a level 1 spell, or even a bag of marbles (Arms & Equipment Guide p. 24), render the gods-as-their-stats-exist, flat footed?

Yes? or No with explanation as to why not, as per RAW.

isnt there a ref save involved here? Also if the target notices the grease and tries to move half speed or less he needs no further saves or rolls, but if target tries to move faster than half speed then additional roll (s) could be required by DM, right?

Yes, the Reflex Save is vs. falling prone, which any god can make the save of. But if they do not have a balance of at least rank 5, they need to actively try to maintain balance, and therefore are Flat Footed.

I'm not asking if the god would fall. I'm asking if they would be flat footed.

 

[xigbar]

Yes, but only until they zip to another position. Some of them most likely have some sort of immunity to being flat-footed, anyway.

 

[Arrowhawk]

I'm asking, can a level 1 spell render a god flat footed? Yes, they could get away (fly, teleport, etc), but that's not what I'm asking.

I implicitly answered that my interpretation is yes, by quoting the section from SRD that says

You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).​

As you pointed out, you need at least 5 ranks in Balance to avoid being FF'd while balancing.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, they can be flatfootedby grease. Just like any epic character that couldn't be bothered to put 5 measly ranks in Balance...

Man, I could NEVER play a rogue in an epic game. As if all the creatures with natural immunity about and the insanely cheap fortification armor weren't bad enough, I can just picture it now: DMs deciding that beings of such tremendous power cannot be subjected to [insert situation that leaves a foe susceptible to sneak attack but, as is the nature of things that leave you open to viscious attacks, is a fairly embarrassing thing to fall prey to] and screwing my rogue out of tons of completely valid SA opportunities for "narritive reasons."

*MASSIVE EYEROLL*