Forked Thread: Does Turn Undead need fixing?

[Shades of Green]

Forked from: Worst 3.5 rule from core books?

Seconded. This is possibly my most hated rule in any RPG. Ever.

So, do you think that the 3.xE Turn Undead mechanic is broken? If so, how do you propose to fix it?

 

[Starbuck_II]

Forked from: Worst 3.5 rule from core books?


So, do you think that the 3.xE Turn Undead mechanic is broken? If so, how do you propose to fix it?

The main issue was it was too table required. You had to consult to tables each time to see if there was any effect.

I think Complete Divine's approach was better.

 

[phloog]

The main issue was it was too table required. You had to consult to tables each time to see if there was any effect.

I think Complete Divine's approach was better.

The JDWiker (Jediwiker?) blog (maybe Google 'Wiker' or 'Jediwiker' and 'Declassified' or something like that) had a long thread on his ideas for turning undead.

I don't have the url anymore - - I've sort of dropped off lurking on any blogs/pages where you expect to see gaming stuff and end up getting a weekly leftist manifesto (completely his right to do so on his page, it just gets boring and whiny sounding to me after a while - If I need that I'll tune in to MSNBC)

- - but he had some cool ideas about that undead stuff.

 

[Delta]

Yeah, if the table is the major problem then I'd go with just saying you turn a maximum HD of your level + (d20+Cha - 10)/3, which is effectively the same thing.

 

[DragonLancer]

I agree, it is a tad odd. The rest of the D20 system is modular, once you know how X works you now how it all works. Then you get the Turn Undead mechanics which don't quite fit.

 

[blargney the second]

It has two main problems:
1) It uses a table. Gah!
2) Undead HD scale up way faster than CR, and you can't actually turn anything CR-appropriate after low levels.
-blarg

 

[frankthedm]

Table is fine IMHO.

Turning usually does too much and makes the encounter too easy, or it does nothing and is a waste of an action. In a Worst Case Scenario, other enemies can be alerted by the undead fleeing at top speed.

The relying on hit die is a big problem because HD matter differently to differing undead types and that Undead monsters got no Con based HP and had poor BAB. If a monster designer wanted a "Beat Down" Undead, it took LOTS of HD to not have a sucky attack roll or Anemic HP. Unholy Toughnessfixed this problem for NPC monsters.

 

[Angrydad]

I too have found that Turn Undead get less useful at higher levels where many undead creatures have a lot of HD and turn resistence. However, the party's Radiant Servant of Pelor has some abilities he can use that are powered by turning attempts, so the fact that he has something like 14 per day means he can use them to do other cool stuff.

 

[Drowbane]

I use an improved version of Complete Divine's mechanics.

[sblock]
Destruction of the Undead.
Instead of making undead run and cower, turn attempts deal positive energy damage to all undead within a 30ft radius burst of the cleric. Turning undead is a standard action that deals 1d6 damage/cleric level to all undead within a 30ft radius burst of the cleric. The affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + Cleric level + Cha mod) for half damage.
Evil clerics (or any cleric that can swap out spells for inflict spells) still Rebuke Undead as explained in the PHB. Paladins work just as you would expect, they turn undead as a cleric three levels lower.
Undead with turn resistance now treat that ability as Damage Reduction vs turning damage, at a rate of 2.5 per point of turning resistance. Thus, your average vampire with turn resistance of 4 would essentially have DR 10/- vs turning damage.
When this ability is used against incorporeal creatures, you do not have to roll a 50% miss chance; turning hits them automatically.
Under this variant system, a greater turning works like an empowered spell. After rolling turning damage, multiply the result by 1.5.
Under this system, a character with 5 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) increases the save DC vs his turn undead attempt by +1 (Clerics rebuking undead still gain a +2 bonus to their turning damage as per PHB).
Additionally, some turning feats work differently under this system.
Disciple of the Sun: You may spend one additional turn attempt to perform a greater turning.
Exalted Turning: Raise your effective cleric level by three for turning effects (+3d6 dmg, +3 DC)
Quicken Turning: You may spend one additional turn attempt to turn undead as a swift action. You may still make only one turning attempt per round.
Widen Turning: This feat replaces Empower Turning (Complete Divine). You may spend one additional turn attempt to double your turn radius.
The effects of Disciple of the Sun, Quicken Turning, and Widen Turning stack.[/sblock]

edit: with this variant in place, any "positive energy dmg" now goes up against TR. Undead needed a boost anyways.

 

[aboyd]

So, do you think that the 3.xE Turn Undead mechanic is broken? If so, how do you propose to fix it?

I proposed a fix here:

Outshine: Dungeons & Dragons 3.t, turning rules streamlined

My fix had some limitations I imposed -- I didn't want to ruin any feats or otherwise undermine the existing rules. So I essentially just made the cap a more or less static number, but the other roll still happens.

I think I'd like to take another stab at it that isn't as concerned with the rules. I'd like to boil it down to one roll and nothing else.