5.5E Future-Edition Brainstorming: A Simplified Cosmology (+)

Yora

Legend
D&D really only uses three or four planes: Abyss, Nine Hells, Celestia, and maybe on occasion Limbo, if they are feeling cute that day.
Throw in a paralel material plane of shadow and fey because people like those, and I think we have everything covered.

So maybe three material planes (Material, Shadow, Fey), three divine planes (Celestia, Abyss, Hell), and a chaos plane to separate the two groups.
 

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Lyxen

Great Old One
I have page 43 bookmarked.
My point is that I don't consider it guidance. Or at least full guidance.

There should be a stp by step example of creation of a cosmos just like creating a PC or race.

It is step by step, and it even includes examples. Maybe not detailed enough for you, but I guess some people are never satisfied anyway.
 

I have page 43 bookmarked.
My point is that I don't consider it guidance. Or at least full guidance.

There should be a stp by step example of creation of a cosmos just like creating a PC or race.
I generally feel that most of the advice in DMG could easily be expanded upon quite a bit. What I'd like to see is some sort of World Builder's Guide that would go more in depth with these sort of things.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
1. Above the gods are 5th dimensional Imps, then above then is the Sixth dimension - the multiverse control room is where the three Monitors watch over reality. The gods are split into fragments, each one exists in every reality- but they can be combined as Darkseid has done. Pre-Crisis Darkseid was bigger than a universe, and when he fell the destruction caused was incalculable. And because you don't know it, you have deemed it useless. Very biased and very small-minded of you.

And here you go, because I don't bow before the awesomeness of something that I don't care about because I don't like DC, I don't like mixing SF like monitors in my fantasy, I'm small-minded. Sue me, but once more, simplification should not be a goal in itself for mythology. See below about Glorantha and myths.

3. I am not saying Glorantha as a setting isn't fun, but the setting is extremely limiting in scope, say compared to DnD.

In some ways, Glorantha is more vast than D&D, because it has a real genesis story, and more than that, that genesis story is shrouded in many contradictory myths that PCs can interact with and modify to tell their own story in god time, with consequence upon the world after time began. It's a brilliant concept that has the added advantage to work really well in game play.

4. This is rubbish statement about it being confidential, of the highest order. The books are readily available on DTRPG, and M&M 2e uses DnD stats too boot.

And that proves the popularity how ? There are myriads of very obscure things on DTRPG, you know, and lots of "things" try to climb out of confidentiality by clinging to D&D.
 

Rogerd1

Explorer
And here you go, because I don't bow before the awesomeness of something that I don't care about because I don't like DC, I don't like mixing SF like monitors in my fantasy, I'm small-minded. Sue me, but once more, simplification should not be a goal in itself for mythology. See below about Glorantha and myths.

In some ways, Glorantha is more vast than D&D, because it has a real genesis story, and more than that, that genesis story is shrouded in many contradictory myths that PCs can interact with and modify to tell their own story in god time, with consequence upon the world after time began. It's a brilliant concept that has the added advantage to work really well in game play.

And that proves the popularity how ? There are myriads of very obscure things on DTRPG, you know, and lots of "things" try to climb out of confidentiality by clinging to D&D.
1. Exactly you're biased, and not open minded. That will obviously mean that you don't like Star Wars, or Esper Genesis then, which mixes SF and Fantasy together.
2. Rubbish. Glorantha lacks the vastness of DnD, nor is it a multiverse.
3. Fact, M&M is a large part of Green Ronin, like a huge following. Then it has the Age setting. Followed by the more recent release Sword Chronicle. They have also written for 5e, 3rd edition and a whole host of things. Everytime you reply you dig a deeper hole...perhaps you should stop digging?
 
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Minigiant

Legend
It is step by step, and it even includes examples. Maybe not detailed enough for you, but I guess some people are never satisfied anyway.
It doesn't go through the steps. That's my point.

It's like giving someone the recipe list but not the recipe instructions.

CHOOSING AN UPPER PLANE
Next well we choose a plane for your celestials. Do you want one upper plane? Two? Four? Infinite? Many setting like the Olympic Cosmos have one upper plane. The Great Wheel has seven. The DMG includes these Upper Planes

Celestia/Heavens
Bytopia/Paradise
Elysium/Blessed Fields
The Beastlands
Arborea/Olympus
Ysgard/Asgard
Arcardia/Kingdoms
Cloudland
The Golden City

In this example we will choose 2 upper planes. Celestia for LG gods and celestials. Arborea for CG gods and celestial. NG gods and celestial will reside in one or the other or both depending on their preferences....
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
1. Exactly you're biased, and not open minded.

It's called having tastes. I don't like DC, I don't like the Speed Force, and I don't like it slapped on cosmology which makes no sense to me. Is that allowed ? I don't force you to like the Great Wheel...

That will obviously mean that you don't like Star Wars, or Esper Genesis then, which mixes SF and Fantasy together.

Now you are making really silly assumptions. I've been a Star Wars fan since my mother took me to see it in the cinema, and it's not a problem to me (and neither are Sanderson young adult skyward books) because they are obviously SciFi based even though it's not "hard" SciFi. My problem is more with having a mostly fantasy world where the explanation turns out that it was really (really bad) science because the author cannot imagine things in a purely fantastic way.

2. Rubbish.

Yeh, right. Now, who is biased and not open-minded ?

Glorantha lacks the vastness of DnD, nor is it a multiverse.

I thought "vastness" and complexity were something to be criticised ? As for the "multiverse", well, even wikipedia happens to disagree with you with this citation: "Glorantha is immense. If explored, it has different worlds and dimensions, whole realms where Gods, spirits and sorcerous powers come from." So yes, it is a multiverse, and in particular during heroquests, you explore all the various planes and stories of the gods, and you even create your own.

3. Fact, M&M is a large part of Green Ronin, like a huge following. Then it has the Age setting. Followed by the more recent release Sword Chronicle. They have also written for 5e, 3rd edition and a whole host of things. Everytime you reply you dig a deeper hole...perhaps you should stop digging?

And yet, instead of showing me how large a following it has, you have to refer to other products like D&D and Green Ronin. I like digging into absurd claims like yours.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
It doesn't go through the steps. That's my point.

But it does, it lists the basic elements, then, for example: "putting them into a coherent cosmology is an optional step." and it has quite a few examples, and suggestions, omniverse, myriad planes, etc.

But, once more, some people need to be guided step by step, it's not the purpose of a general book like the DMG to guide you through minute steps of the creation process of your world and its cosmology, especially since many DMs will probably never create one anyway. But some people will go to any length to find reasons to criticise.
 

Rogerd1

Explorer
It's called having tastes. I don't like DC, I don't like the Speed Force, and I don't like it slapped on cosmology which makes no sense to me. Is that allowed ? I don't force you to like the Great Wheel...

Now you are making really silly assumptions. I've been a Star Wars fan since my mother took me to see it in the cinema, and it's not a problem to me (and neither are Sanderson young adult skyward books) because they are obviously SciFi based even though it's not "hard" SciFi. My problem is more with having a mostly fantasy world where the explanation turns out that it was really (really bad) science because the author cannot imagine things in a purely fantastic way.

Yeh, right. Now, who is biased and not open-minded ?

I thought "vastness" and complexity were something to be criticised ? As for the "multiverse", well, even wikipedia happens to disagree with you with this citation: "Glorantha is immense. If explored, it has different worlds and dimensions, whole realms where Gods, spirits and sorcerous powers come from." So yes, it is a multiverse, and in particular during heroquests, you explore all the various planes and stories of the gods, and you even create your own.

And yet, instead of showing me how large a following it has, you have to refer to other products like D&D and Green Ronin. I like digging into absurd claims like yours.
1. Right, and?
2. I am not making any assumptions. Your statement below is you don't like SF mixed with fantasy, it just so happens you used the examples of Monitors. But it is your statement.
And here you go, because I don't bow before the awesomeness of something that I don't care about because I don't like DC, I don't like mixing SF like monitors in my fantasy, I'm small-minded.
Make your mind up.

3 / 4. Glorantha is a square world, floating on a supposedly infinite sea, with the Underworld below, and Heavens above full of gods. No matter how you shake this tree, it will not make it a multiverse under current theories, merely a universe. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

5. Green Ronin has written numerous products of its own, and also for established products too.


So at this point you are clearly trolling. If a product line was not as successful as Mutants and Masterminds there would not be as many products available.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
1. Right, and?
2. I am not making any assumptions. Your statement below is you don't like SF mixed with fantasy, it just so happens you used the examples of Monitors. But it is your statement.

No, my statement is I don't like to mix SF in my fantasy, which is not the same thing.

3 / 4. Glorantha is a square world, floating on a supposedly infinite sea, with the Underworld below, and Heavens above full of gods. No matter how you shake this tree, it will not make it a multiverse under current theories, merely a universe. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

And not only have you not read the proofs that I've given to you, but it shows that you have no idea what Glorantha is, and in particular the difference between the god time and time, and their simultaneous existence, with all the realms that existed before Glorantha took the shape that it has today. Go read.

5. Green Ronin has written numerous products of its own, and also for established products too.

Great, and because Green Ronin has written many products, it somehow makes M&M 3e more than confidential, especially today when 3e is not played that much, even less derivative games ?


So at this point you are clearly trolling. If a product line was not as successful as Mutants and Masterminds there would not be as many products available.

Look here: DriveThruRPG.com - The Largest RPG Download Store!

Dragon Warriors, a RPG from 1985 which was very confidential, I brought it at the time because it was simple for initiation, and it's still in DTRPG although I wager almost nobody plays it today. What exactly is your problem with M&M 3e being confidential ? I've played confidential games when they were great for our tables...
 

Rogerd1

Explorer
No, my statement is I don't like to mix SF in my fantasy, which is not the same thing.

And not only have you not read the proofs that I've given to you, but it shows that you have no idea what Glorantha is, and in particular the difference between the god time and time, and their simultaneous existence, with all the realms that existed before Glorantha took the shape that it has today. Go read.

Great, and because Green Ronin has written many products, it somehow makes M&M 3e more than confidential, especially today when 3e is not played that much, even less derivative games ?

Look here: DriveThruRPG.com - The Largest RPG Download Store!

Dragon Warriors, a RPG from 1985 which was very confidential, I brought it at the time because it was simple for initiation, and it's still in DTRPG although I wager almost nobody plays it today. What exactly is your problem with M&M 3e being confidential ? I've played confidential games when they were great for our tables...
1. Mixing SF into your Fantasy is exactly what they have done with Star Wars, Nightsisters of Dathomir.
Esper Genesis is a mix of this too with the upcoming KS.

2. I have read them as I have the books. You are utterly ignorant of physics - it is that simple! Having extra dimensions tacked onto a world setting does not make a multiverse. In the same way that Calabi-Yau Manifold may be be part of our universe. This does not make a multiverse.

A multiverse is a group of universes, parallel and alternate (depending upon the model used).

3. It is clear English is your strong suite, as confidential as you are using is plain wrong.


At no point are the games or settings secret.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Mod Note:
@Lyxen and @Rogerd1


The two of you seem more engaged in your petty personal digs about who is closed-minded than you are with the topic. And making the discussion personal is a good way tot get into an argument, and get yoruself ejected from the thread.

Lyxen, especially, you came into the thread to announce how what the thread was about would not work for you. This is supposed to be a (+) thread, and that's not a constructive setup. It seems to have positioned you to be in conflict, rather than building anything.

Both of you find better ways to engage with the topic, or take your leave of the discussion.
 
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Rogerd1

Explorer
First, I would condense most of the Upper Planes into one "Heaven" plane. It could be called basically anything, from just "Heaven", to "Mount Celestia", or "Elysium", but for now we'll just call it "Heaven". I don't like how the Great Wheel will separate the afterlives of even good creatures from each other (so family members will be split up if they're of different good alignments), and think that one heaven could just fit all. It could have different layers (possibly one for each type of good alignment; chaotic, neutral, and lawful, but I'd prefer if the sub-divisions of the plane were more like home-realms for Angels, Archons, and Couatls, or something like that, but perhaps both of those could be used in the same setting). The plane is pretty simple; it would be Heaven. A paradise. A place that you probably never want to leave if you come here, with amazing weather, endless food and drink (maybe Nectar and Ambrosia), friendly people, eternal celestial servants, and so on. The Gods might live here if this cosmology has explicitly real gods and they're stated to live in places that the setting's characters can access, but this isn't necessary (maybe take a note from Exandria and have the Gods be real and present, but they can't journey to or interfere with the mortal plane). Either way, Celestial Paragons (Archangels, super powerful Couatls, possibly called Quetzalcouatls, and Head Archons) would be in charge of running most of the business on the plane, and would be what Celestial-Patron Warlocks would make pacts with.

Second, I would also condense most of the Lower Planes into one "Hell" plane. Again, the name doesn't really matter, it could be "Hades", "Hel(l)", "the Abyss/Nine Hells/Acheron/Pandemonium", or something like that, but it would be Hell, the home plane of Fiends and where people who do evil get sent when they die. I personally would probably use my previous idea of it having 7 layers, each attached to one of the Seven Deadly Sins (with an Archfiend that embodies one of the sins ruling each level, like Mammon for Greed, Yeenoghu for Gluttony, Baphomet for Wrath, etc), and probably have the Blood War just take place on this single plane of existence, but that isn't necessary to this idea. Also like the Heaven plane in this same cosmology, the evil gods may or may not live here, it depends on the setting's deity situation, but the Archfiends definitely would, and would be what most Fiend Warlocks make pacts with.
1. Okay so why not take a leaf from the older Charmed tv series, which had Upper Planes, and Lower Planes - both completely separate.

2. Have the astral, but various levels? So at the bottom is the astral sea, star visible through the silvery reflective surface. Mid level could be clouds, which could even possibly contain whole planets? And upper astral could be a dark void full of unknown dangers?
 


Li Shenron

Legend
Why doesn't D&D just list like all 50+ planes and give 6-10 configurations? Two of which can be simple.
Then give you guidance to make you own.
The 3ed Manual of the Planes does that (it's not 50 but more like ~35) but we haven't got a similar book in 5e yet, only the slim information in DMG.
 

Not really in favor of a "one cosmology to rule them all", but for a simple and flavorful one I'd go with:

Prime Material - Center
(Main stage of campaign)

Celestia - Above
(Elemental Air, Astral Sea, & Saintly Planes)

Chthon - Below
(Elemental Earth, Border Ethereal, Shadowfell, & Diabolical Planes)

Oceanos - North
(Elemental Water, Deep Ethereal, & Anarchic Planes)

Gehenna - South
(Elemental Fire & Demoniac Planes)

Arborea - East
(Elemental Wood, Feywild, & Beautific Planes)

Mechanus - West
(Elemental Metal & Axiomatic Planes)
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
The 3ed Manual of the Planes does that (it's not 50 but more like ~35) but we haven't got a similar book in 5e yet, only the slim information in DMG.

Seeing that these books are mostly "not rules" any edition of the Manual of the Planes would do that, or actually any of the sites on the web, since they are mostly ruleless too.
 

Minigiant

Legend
The 3ed Manual of the Planes does that (it's not 50 but more like ~35) but we haven't got a similar book in 5e yet, only the slim information in DMG.

Yet another book 5e is missing

Well there are what 27 planes in the Great Wheel. And Feywild- and some all new planes and you can get to 50.


Xibalba and Mictlan for D&D
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
I acknowledge that the World Axis Cosmology is simpler than the Great Wheel. However, it is still fairly complicated. While it does look like 5 planes of existence in that display, it's more (it has the Abyss, Nine Hells, Pandemonium, Carceri, and other planes still. The Elemental Chaos and Astral Sea are more like Transitive Planes/Planar Locations that the other planes of existence are found in). I do prefer the World Axis to the Great Wheel, but it's not as simple as my tastes, and I did borrow a bit from it in my explanation of a possible simplified cosmology in the OP (Astral Sea with spelljammers in it, moving the cosmology from wheel-shaped to more "axis" based, etc).
My own take with the World Axis is that each realm in the Planes (Hestavar, Carceri, Arvandor, the City of Brass etc) is more like a huge city or domain, rather than a complete plane. Maybe something like Domains of Dread/Delight.

So you dont have to learn 10+ different planes, just like you dont have to know the different cities of the Feywild or Shadowfell.
 


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