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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Urbannen" data-source="post: 1093399" data-attributes="member: 7643">I don't have the ELH with me as I am at work.  I will definitely check out p.25 when I get home.    I guess you're being sarcastic here.  I'd like to point out that implying that someone has made mistakes in the past doesn't prove that he is incorrect about the question at hand.  I distrust the reference in the DMG because whoever wrote it made another rules error in the same passage.  Do you have the passage where it explains the mechanics of this process?  All I could find was that at the 21st character level a character starts using epic attack and save bonuses and can start to choose their feats from the list of epic feats.  The ELH even has feat acquisition past 20th level in the same chart as ability score increases past the 20th level.  Do you also get ability score increases based on ECL?  It seems arbritrary to say that you use ECL to determine some epic features but not others.    I admit that there are unclear references in SS and probably ELH that say that a character with an ECL higher than 20 is considered "Epic."  The thing is I've never seen any rules that explain in what way, except in experience points and treasure, that a character would gain epic characteristics until gaining its 21 HD.</blockquote>