D&D 5E (2024) Greater Fighting Styles

[Silam]

And this is before we consider the dice. If I roll poorly I could start at 1st level with a 14 or even lower in my highest ability, even if I put all my feats into that ability it will still be too low to meet the prerequisites and if it is not too low then the casters with average rolls meet it as well, let alone those with great rolls.

This is interesting… it got me thinking… should feat prereqs reflect absolute ability, or should it reflect the amount of effort someone put into honing a given ability?

If prereqs should reflect absolute ability, then it makes sense for a feat to require having X in some stat.

But if prereqs should reflect the amount of effort spent honing a given ability, then perhaps it would be better for a feat to require having some stat be Y higher than it was at level 1!

In order to answer the question of where you stand on the above nature vs nurture debate, considering the following:

Jack the Super Ripped is blessed with perfect genetics and rolled straight 18s in all stats. Because he is so naturally talented, he aced the entry exam for wizardry school and now he is a Wizard. Some 12 levels later, and after having maxed his Int by taking a couple Int half-feats, he gets bored of wizardry, and has a midlife crisis. He suddenly wants to be a jock and wield swords. Because he has perfect stats, he qualifies for a super duper feat of martial prowess that requires Strength 18, so he takes it. Meanwhile, Johnny the Average Joe has straight 12s in his stats and 12 levels later in a martial class, he managed to bring his Strength up to 16. He is very proud of how far he’s come from his humble beginnings, but he still can’t master the super duper feat of martial prowess (which Jack learned in an afternoon just to flex).

If the above sounds good, then you are in the camp of absolute stats as prereqs. If on the other hand, you think Jack is a jackass and doesn’t deserve the super duper feat, while humbe Johnny should have it, then perhaps you might consider that a prereq saying "your Strength must be at least 3 points higher than at level 1" might be more fitting.

Just a stray thought. Thanks for coming to my TED talk

 

[W'rkncacnter]

This is interesting… it got me thinking… should feat prereqs reflect absolute ability, or should it reflect the amount of effort someone put into honing a given ability?

If prereqs should reflect absolute ability, then it makes sense for a feat to require having X in some stat.

But if prereqs should reflect the amount of effort spent honing a given ability, then perhaps it would be better for a feat to require having some stat be Y higher than it was at level 1!

In order to answer the question of where you stand on the above nature vs nurture debate, considering the following:

Jack the Super Ripped is blessed with perfect genetics and rolled straight 18s in all stats. Because he is so naturally talented, he aced the entry exam for wizardry school and now he is a Wizard. Some 12 levels later, and after having maxed his Int by taking a couple Int half-feats, he gets bored of wizardry, and has a midlife crisis. He suddenly wants to be a jock and wield swords. Because he has perfect stats, he qualifies for a super duper feat of martial prowess that requires Strength 18, so he takes it. Meanwhile, Johnny the Average Joe has straight 12s in his stats and 12 levels later in a martial class, he managed to bring his Strength up to 16. He is very proud of how far he’s come from his humble beginnings, but he still can’t master the super duper feat of martial prowess (which Jack learned in an afternoon just to flex).

If the above sounds good, then you are in the camp of absolute stats as prereqs. If on the other hand, you think Jack is a jackass and doesn’t deserve the super duper feat, while humbe Johnny should have it, then perhaps you might consider that a prereq saying "your Strength must be at least 3 points higher than at level 1" might be more fitting.

Just a stray thought. Thanks for coming to my TED talk

this assumes a feat's prerequisites aren't a reflection of how capable a character has to be to make use of them. it doesn't really matter how far i've progressed over however much time or if ability scores are a measure of talent or not, if i can't lift 1000 pounds i can't lift 1000 pounds.

also the 3 points higher then whatever method introduces the problem that if you roll too high then you physically CAN'T get certain feats without magic items and if you allow magic items to contribute to meeting that prerequisite you've arguably defeated the entire point

 

[Minigiant]

...but...why?

Because humaniods dont have 3 or 4 hands, attacking with or 4 weapons would not function like attacking with 1 or 2.

 

[Corinnguard]

This is interesting… it got me thinking… should feat prereqs reflect absolute ability, or should it reflect the amount of effort someone put into honing a given ability?

this assumes a feat's prerequisites aren't a reflection of how capable a character has to be to make use of them.

What if, instead of a feat, you get a class feature that does almost the same thing as a feat? Laser Llama's Alternate Ranger class has the Knack feature which offers anyone playing a Ranger a little bit of knowledge to bolster some of your skills such as the ones you'll use for hunting, tracking and surviving. The prerequisites for each of the Knacks is a skill such as Stealth and a class level. For instance, the Stalker Knack:

Stalker I​

Prerequisite: proficiency in Stealth
You are a master at remaining undetected in the wilderness. You have advantage on Stealth checks you make to hide while you are in natural environments.

Finally, you can add double your Proficiency Bonus to any Stealth checks that you make.

With this Knack at 1st level, you are a lot stealthier than those around you. Maybe even stealthier than the Rogue in your party. At 3rd-level, you take up another Stalker Knack.

Stalker II​

Prerequisite: 3rd-level Ranger, Stalker I
You have learned to hunt your prey while remaining unseen. You can take the Hide action as a bonus action on your turn.

You can probably see where this is going.

Stalker III​

Prerequisite: 9th-level Ranger, Stalker I, II
You cannot be tracked, even by magic. You are always under the effects of the nondetection spell, and you can't be tracked by Divination magic or magical means unless you wish to be.

Stalker IV​

Prerequisite: 14th-level Ranger, Stalker I, II, III
Your mythic skill allow you to become undetectable. Any time you take a Hide action, you, and anything you are wearing or carrying, becomes invisible until the start of your next turn.

This effect instantly ends if you Cast a Spell, or you attack or force a creature to make an ability check or saving throw.

Laser Llama's Alternate Ranger can take up about 10 Knacks by the time they reached 20th level. The other Alternate Martial classes by Laser Llama don't have anything like his Ranger's Knacks. They just have Exploits, which are basically like combat maneuvers similar to the ones in Level Up.

 

[Minigiant]

That is not necessarily true, especially in a game with 3 tiers where only one of them involves weapons at all and 2 of the non-casters (Fighter, Rogue) are mechanically the best classes at skill checks at most levels.

And this is before we consider the dice. If I roll poorly I could start at 1st level with a 14 or even lower in my highest ability, even if I put all my feats into that ability it will still be too low to meet the prerequisites and if it is not too low then the casters with average rolls meet it as well, let alone those with great rolls.

The real and harsh truth of 5e learned after TCOE, is that PCs were designed to start with a 16 in their class's primary score.

Sub 16 Prinary Scores were are gimmicks. They were not intended. WOTC designers created accidents that let 14 STR or Dex martials work.

An Str 14, Int 16 level 1 fighter requires was supposed to require a specific subclasses, fighting style, or feat to work.

 

[Horwath]

Been thinking.
Fighting Style Feats are feats. But they are not the best ones to choose as a general feat upon level up.

if you do not add +1 ASI to them, they are probably THE worst feats in 2024.

even the best FS, archery, is not worth a full feat.
in every scenario +2 dex is better(yes, I know 12th level, bla, bla, but next to no one plays those levels for any length of time).

it's +2 attack with only ranged weapons, against:

+1 attack with ranged and finesse weapons
+1 damage with ranged and finesse weapons
+1 AC
+1 dex saves
+1 to dex skills

 

[Horwath]

djustments are easier. Nondamage effects tend to slow down the game unless you limit usage.

most of them needs to avoid saving throws, if it can be helped.

other way is that they trigger if you beat AC by 5 or more.

that is our way for the Topple mastery. speeds up play as there is no new roll at the table, rewards high player attack roll that is not a crit.

off-topic for Graze:

only if you miss AC by 5 or less. then you deal minimal damage.

 

[Minigiant]

if you do not add +1 ASI to them, they are probably THE worst feats in 2024.

even the best FS, archery, is not worth a full feat.
in every scenario +2 dex is better(yes, I know 12th level, bla, bla, but next to no one plays those levels for any length of time).

it's +2 attack with only ranged weapons, against:

+1 attack with ranged and finesse weapons
+1 damage with ranged and finesse weapons
+1 AC
+1 dex saves
+1 to dex skills

The point is that they are bonus feats and swappable every level independently of your normally allowed general feat swaps.

So a Fighter gets Thrown Weapon Fighting at level 1 and at level 6 can swap Thrown Weapon Fighting for Greater Thrown Weapon Fighting. Then maybe at level 15 swap Greater Thrown Weapon Fighting for Legendary Thrown Weapon Fighting.

 

[Horwath]

The point is that they are bonus feats and swappable every level independently of your normally allowed general feat swaps.

So a Fighter gets Thrown Weapon Fighting at level 1 and at level 6 can swap Thrown Weapon Fighting for Greater Thrown Weapon Fighting. Then maybe at level 15 swap Greater Thrown Weapon Fighting for Legendary Thrown Weapon Fighting.

that is great for your idea, but I mentioned that default FS feats are complete trap choice unless you add +1 ASI to them, and even then, most of them are still trap choice. GWFS, I'm looking at you.

 

[Horwath]

Well that's the point.



Well the high level defensive fighting styles could be Constitution based.

I also ponder a Fighting style that adds Constitution to damage somehow

Con can be more or less just deleted from the game and most people would not notice it.
It's just a relic.

in 12 years, 80% of characters that I saw at the table had 14 Con, 15% is split between 12 and 16, and the rest is anything else.
we jokingly call it "the 14 stat".

just move all Con saves to STR, this would help with STR/DEX power debate, give everyone +2 HP per level and be done with it.
Concentration can just be casting stat save.