Greyhawk: Crown of the Witch Queen announced as 2027 adventure

[Selas]

Iuz is Demonic, and the Horned Society is diabolical, so it would be the other way around for those options...but plausible speculation.

True. I'll amend the post

 

[LordLothar]

Let's be fair though, straight numbers don't tell the whole story. some of those nations are a LOT bigger than others. But, I agree, it is fairly balanced (ish). Now, if you did the same thing in say, Forgotten Realms, do you think the numbers would play out the same? I haven't done the numbers, but, my gut feeling is no, the nation states, particularly in the Sword Coast (city-states, rather than nations) are predominantly good. All the major centers up and down the Sword Coast are either straight up good or strongly leaning that way. Like I said, you look at something like Waterdeep, where killing is strictly illegal - there isn't even a provision for self-defense. You kill someone in Waterdeep, if you get caught, you're either getting hard labor or exile, full stop.

That is pretty much the antithesis of S&S.

On second thought, I believe the perception of the Forgotten Realms as being a "good" setting, especially compared to other D&D settings, stems largely from the AD&D 2nd Edition era. Back then, the core material focused on the kingdom of Cormyr, which was distinctly "Arthurian" in nature; it was a force for good, and threats to it came almost exclusively from the outside.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

On second thought, I believe the perception of the Forgotten Realms as being a "good" setting, especially compared to other D&D settings, stems largely from the AD&D 2nd Edition era. Back then, the core material focused on the kingdom of Cormyr, which was distinctly "Arthurian" in nature; it was a force for good, and threats to it came almost exclusively from the outside.

Cormyr is boring and generic. But I remember Waterdeep being an important part of FR from the start.

 

[LordLothar]

Cormyr is boring and generic. But I remember Waterdeep being an important part of FR from the start.

Always was, but Waterdeep never was the city or regional present in the "core" book of FR, must of the time the focus are in Sword Coast or the heartlands.
AD&D 2nd Campagin Setting focus most in the The Dales, Cormyr and Sembia

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

That would be a interesthing thing to do. Let's take Neverwinter area (i'm runing a campaing there right now).

• Neverwinter itself would have the Neutral and Chaotic good (the mercenary guard and the Harpist enclave there) and the neutral symbols (the nobles)
• Gauntlgrym would have the lawfull good (the Dawrfs), the three neutral (the monsters inside) and the chaotic evil symbol (Drows)
• Neverwinter Woods would have the good (there's a Elf enclaves), the neutral (somo Uthgarths), the three evil (some Uthgarths, Drows, Evil Cultists, Zhentarym and Thayins)

So would be more or like:

• 4 goods
• 5 neutral
• 4 evil

I belive most of the realms would be in this fashion. If we put all the North, yes, most of the city states would be good, but the rest is full of neutral Uthgahrts and giants and evil Zhentarym, Thayins, Drows and giants, most of the evil Drows citys are in the North

That's kinda my point. The areas you point out are very, very much smaller than Greyhawk areas. Its a much more fine grained look at Sword Coast. And, the evils, like the Drow Cities, are confined to the Underdark. There are no drow cities or city-states on the surface.

FR is much more a Points of Darkness setting. Good is predominant with concentrations of evil salted through. GR is the opposite. It's a Points of Light campaign where most of the areas are predominantly evil (or neutral at best) with a smattering of enclaves of good.

 

[LordLothar]

That's kinda my point. The areas you point out are very, very much smaller than Greyhawk areas. Its a much more fine grained look at Sword Coast. And, the evils, like the Drow Cities, are confined to the Underdark. There are no drow cities or city-states on the surface.

FR is much more a Points of Darkness setting. Good is predominant with concentrations of evil salted through. GR is the opposite. It's a Points of Light campaign where most of the areas are predominantly evil (or neutral at best) with a smattering of enclaves of good.

Very much smaller? The underdark cover a area almost the size of all the North, and the Drow attack all the North because of this, the Drow cover a area way larger then any city-state in the NOrth. Must of the area of the North are neutral or evil, we even evil citys, like Luskan.


IF FR is Points of Darkness or Points of Light depends in the region you are using, the Dales would be Points of Darkness, but Chult is ceary Points of Light. The North and the Sword Coast is in the middle

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

Very much smaller? The underdark cover a area almost the size of all the North, and the Drow attack all the North because of this, the Drow cover a area way larger then any city-state in the NOrth. Must of the area of the North are neutral or evil, we even evil citys, like Luskan.


IF FR is Points of Darkness or Points of Light depends in the region you are using, the Dales would be Points of Darkness, but Chult is ceary Points of Light. The North and the Sword Coast is in the middle

Yes, very much smaller. The Sword Coast is half the size of Greyhawk (although Faerun is MUCH larger). Sure, Drow enclaves exist here and there, but, there are only a few "cities". The largest is Menzoberranzen - with a population of about 20 000. That's it. The greatest city of the Drow is smaller than Neverwinter, which is a fraction of the size of Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate.

And, I'd point out, that while the Underdark might be that large, the Drow hardly control it. There are numerous factions down there, all fighting with each other. And, even then, you have good aligned centers like Gauntlgrym
and Blingdenstone. How many good aligned cities would you find in Iuz or Pomarj?

The Drow raid the surface but that's about it.

I mean, sure, if you limit your campaign to a very small area - such as Out of the Abyss did - then it's very much a points of light campaign. But, Out of the Abyss covers maybe 200 miles total. But overall? Naw, it's very much Points of Darkness. Darkness is confined to some fairly small areas surrounded by Light.

 

[LordLothar]

Yes, very much smaller. The Sword Coast is half the size of Greyhawk (although Faerun is MUCH larger). Sure, Drow enclaves exist here and there, but, there are only a few "cities". The largest is Menzoberranzen - with a population of about 20 000. That's it. The greatest city of the Drow is smaller than Neverwinter, which is a fraction of the size of Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate.

And, I'd point out, that while the Underdark might be that large, the Drow hardly control it. There are numerous factions down there, all fighting with each other. And, even then, you have good aligned centers like Gauntlgrym
and Blingdenstone. How many good aligned cities would you find in Iuz or Pomarj?

The Drow raid the surface but that's about it.

I mean, sure, if you limit your campaign to a very small area - such as Out of the Abyss did - then it's very much a points of light campaign. But, Out of the Abyss covers maybe 200 miles total. But overall? Naw, it's very much Points of Darkness. Darkness is confined to some fairly small areas surrounded by Light.

Menzobenzzaran has a definition of metropolis, with a population above 25 000, the same category of Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate, so no, isn't smaller than Neverwiter

The Drow is one faction of evil beings in the undedark exactly like in GH where the evil faction are one against other too

The Drow doesn't just "raid the surface", they squeme, they try to create points of power, they has spys in all citys and try to create allies there. Not only then, but the Illithids, the Cult of Dragon, the Zentharim and the Thayans.

And how many good aligned cities you would find in Thay or in Anarouch?

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

Menzobenzzaran has a definition of metropolis, with a population above 25 000, the same category of Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate, so no, isn't smaller than Neverwiter

The Drow is one faction of evil beings in the undedark exactly like in GH where the evil faction are one against other too

The Drow doesn't just "raid the surface", they squeme, they try to create points of power, they has spys in all citys and try to create allies there. Not only then, but the Illithids, the Cult of Dragon, the Zentharim and the Thayans.

And how many good aligned cities you would find in Thay or in Anarouch?

Again, that's my point. There absolutely are points of darkness in FR. Sure, I totally agree. But, let's take Thay for a good example. The states surrounding Thay are (in no particular order):

Thesk - Good aligned
Aglarond - Good aligned
Mulhorand - Strongly Lawful with a split between good and evil
Narfell - Strongly Chaotic with a split between good and evil (also not really much of a state anymore)

That's exactly what points of darkness looks like. You have evil, bad places that are surrounded by neutral or good aligned states.

Like you say, that drow "scheme" and "try to create points of power" - because they have no actual power on the surface. They have no real direct influence beyond their own borders. And, frankly, the drow are far too busy killing each other to really effectively bother anyone else.

I would point out however, that Menzoberranzan, according to Out of the Abyss - which I believe is the latest canon - puts the population at 20 000. Waterdeep, OTOH, according to Waterdeepragon Heist, has a population of about 250 000, just to put it in perspective. Baldur's gate is about 125 000 (according to Descent into Avernus). So, no, while they might all be considered "Metropolis" sized cities, Menzoberanzan is a fraction of the size of either Waterdeep or Baldur's gate. It is, actually, pretty close in size to Neverwinter.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

I understand that Tasha and Xanathar are some of the most well known D&D characters solely because their names appear on popular 5e supplements, and there was that whole "D&D as a brand is as well known as Star Wars but no one can name a D&D character like they can Luke or Vader" bit from a few years ago (I guess that's why we're doing star wars D&D) but is there anyone out there with an emotional or nostalgic connection to Tasha or her daughter whose name I can't be bothered to look up?

Legit I think you could sell more copies of this book if you said she was Baba Yaga's granddaughter instead of Tasha's daughter.