Greyhawk: Crown of the Witch Queen announced as 2027 adventure

[Parmandur]

Again, that's my point. There absolutely are points of darkness in FR. Sure, I totally agree. But, let's take Thay for a good example. The states surrounding Thay are (in no particular order):

Thesk - Good aligned
Aglarond - Good aligned
Mulhorand - Strongly Lawful with a split between good and evil
Narfell - Strongly Chaotic with a split between good and evil (also not really much of a state anymore)

That's exactly what points of darkness looks like. You have evil, bad places that are surrounded by neutral or good aligned states.

Like you say, that drow "scheme" and "try to create points of power" - because they have no actual power on the surface. They have no real direct influence beyond their own borders. And, frankly, the drow are far too busy killing each other to really effectively bother anyone else.

I would point out however, that Menzoberranzan, according to Out of the Abyss - which I believe is the latest canon - puts the population at 20 000. Waterdeep, OTOH, according to Waterdeepragon Heist, has a population of about 250 000, just to put it in perspective. Baldur's gate is about 125 000 (according to Descent into Avernus). So, no, while they might all be considered "Metropolis" sized cities, Menzoberanzan is a fraction of the size of either Waterdeep or Baldur's gate. It is, actually, pretty close in size to Neverwinter.

Forgetting questiona about nation alignments...

The reason FR is a Points of Light Setting has to do with the huge, enormous stretches of howling wilderness inhabited by Trolls, Dragons, Giants, Yuan-Ti, Beholders, etc.

There is a wilderness North of the Moonsea that is like...all Monsters, all the time. And it is large.

 

[LordLothar]

I begin to writing a reply, but i see we would change your points and already reach what we want to show, and disagree in this point. So i will end here

 

[Flying Toaster]

is there anyone out there with an emotional or nostalgic connection to Tasha or her daughter whose name I can't be bothered to look up?

Her name is “Drelnza” or occasionally “Drelzna” according to her very short Great Library of Greyhawk entry. While I have no strong opinions about any of this, I just want to point out that this is a real tongue twister of a name even by Greyhawk standards. If I were running Tsojcanth or this new adventure I would at least insert an extra “e” to make “Drelenza”, although that still does not really flow off the tongue.

 

[grodog]

I am not familiar with that essay, but that seems like a likely inflection point about how the setting was talked about. But unless NiteScreed was secretly Gygax (who went by @Col_Pladoh online as far as I know, including here at ENWorld), that's still distinct from Greyhawk's actual origins, as influential as the essay might have been.

Nitescreed’s essay has been preserved in a number of places; here’s one: Putting The Grey In The Hawk by Nitescreed - SHANE PLAYS

Allan.

 

[grodog]

Sorry but Elric is THE definition of S&S, Michael Moorcock is who the define the term Sword & Sorcery for the genre, and magic is exactly in the name of the genre. What define S&S as a genre wasn't those movies, as what define Middle-Earth aren't Jackson movies, they just popularize the genre, note define then.

While I agree that Elric is quintessential S&S fiction, Fritz Leiber coined the genre name in rebuttal to Moorcock’s proposed “epic fantasy” as how best to describe Howard’s Conan tales: Sword and sorcery - Wikipedia

Allan.

 

[grodog]

Exactly. Rather than saying that S&S is low magic aesthetic, it's more about magic not being readily available to the common folk due to multiple factors, and is seen with a degree of suspicion or fear as a result of being mostly used for evil or cataclysmic events (like the Rain of Colorless Fire in GH). It tends to be more common in large cities or places with magic schools/covens, where it can be heavily regulated.

Agreed, and I also wouldn’t argue that Greyhawk is a low-magic setting, given the magical apocalypses that shaped it, and the artifacts and relics that originated there alongside its many mortals who ascended/descended into quasi- or demigodhood.

Allan.

 

[grodog]

It seems an odd direction to take, since Gary Gygax ran a “no evil PCs” game, and went so far as to forbid PC assassins.

That’s incorrect: Lord Robilar, played by Rob Kuntz, was famously LE, with many other PCs either evil or neutrals. Some characters changed alignments willingly (Robilar), while others did so for gain when acquiring artifacts (Tenser became good for such reasons—both he and Robilar were originally neutral).

Allan.

 

[grodog]

While I remain a huge fan and supporter of Greyhawk as a setting, I have been burned by WotC far too many times to worry much about what they’re doing with the setting on any level. I’ll wait to see what the final product looks like, and if it looks good I’ll pick it up.

I’m doing the same with the Castle Zagyg campaigns; if the new material in the first set looks good, I’ll consider picking up the later ones.

Meanwhile, the fans continue to be the best supporters for the setting, across a variety of editions: Why Greyhawk in 2023? - grodog's Thoughts

Allan.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

While I agree that Elric is quintessential S&S fiction, Fritz Leiber coined the genre name in rebuttal to Moorcock’s proposed “epic fantasy” as how best to describe Howard’s Conan tales: Sword and sorcery - Wikipedia

Allan.

Elric is a deconstruction of Conan. A physically frail spellcaster dependant on magic, from an advanced but decadent culture. His adventures often involve killing gods, planar travel and other high magic weirdness. So, whilst he is traditionally included in the S&S genre, he very much muddies the waters.

Of course Leiber’s stories could also get very weird.

 

[Parmandur]

Elric is a deconstruction of Conan. A physically frail spellcaster dependant on magic, from an advanced but decadent culture. His adventures often involve killing gods, planar travel and other high magic weirdness. So, whilst he is traditionally included in the S&S genre, he very much muddies the waters.

Of course Leiber’s stories could also get very weird.

D&D is, at heart, Sword & Sorcery where Elric, Conan and Fabfred & the Grey Mouser are all hanging out with Merlin and Bilbo Baggins.