D&D (2024) Greyhawk Grognard covers the Greyhawk section of the DMG

My take is that WotC are very conscious that a lot of their readers are going to be around 12 years old (and have parents looking over their shoulders). Therefore, the "evil" in their products is veiled.

Of course, older players are free to make the evil as explicit as they like, and as representative of any real life group they like. There doesn't have to be torture porn in WotC products for players to include it in their games, if that's what they want.
 

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Zeromaru X

Arkhosian scholar and coffee lover
I'm sorry? When have dragons been a big presence in Greyhawk? And one of the major three conflicts? Iuz & Elemental Evil - sure. But Dragons?

Well, the game is called Dungeons & Dragons. Dragons need to be more relevant, even if by retcon.

Is one of the changes I feel make sense. It always felt weird that the OG setting lacked in the dragon department.
 
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Hussar

Legend
I’d say in this case they are inspired by rather than the actual thing. So it is not ok to have fantasy fascists with white hair and purple eyes… what colors are allowed? Can we not have fascists at all?

I do not mind evil organizations being evil rather than the neighborhood gang of pickpockets
I have zero interest in rehashing this. It has been done to death. Nothing either of us is going to make a difference here.

So, why not simply ACCEPT that people have a different opinion than you do and that the inclusion of some of these things makes the game less fun for them. Now, since it hurts you in no way, shape or form to leave this stuff out - you can certainly add it back in when you run games, I certainly am going to - and it makes other people happy, why endlessly beat this dead horse?
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm all for another Satanic Panic :p
Except, that this time around, Hasbro gets cold feet and pulls all D&D stuff from the shelves and buries D&D for the next fifteen years. I'd rather not have to deal with that thanks. We got lucky the last time that the Satanic Panic came out. This time? It's a crap shoot. Which means that any publisher is going to really think twice about poking that particular bear.

It's utterly baffling to me that anyone is still arguing this to be honest. Good grief, WotC has been 100% up front about this and has been for years. This isn't new. This isn't something out of left field. This has been going on for the better part of a decade now.

At some point, you'd think it'd sink in that WotC is NOT going to do this. What more evidence do you need?
 

TiQuinn

Registered User
My take is that WotC are very conscious that a lot of their readers are going to be around 12 years old (and have parents looking over their shoulders). Therefore, the "evil" in their products is veiled.

Of course, older players are free to make the evil as explicit as they like, and as representative of any real life group they like. There doesn't have to be torture porn in WotC products for players to include it in their games, if that's what they want.

This makes me think of the 3e Book of Vile Darkness, and how it looked when WotC actually tried to make a book with mature themes and managed to be both childish and offensive all in one go.

“Hey guys, you can get a +2 bonus if your sacrifice is both a virgin and you’ve tortured them for at least 24 hours!”

“Cool, let me look up the torture rules! Hmmm…nipple clamps of pain! Ohhh, look…crucifixion rules!”

And of course, it was for mature audiences, but I don’t remember stores actually preventing anyone from buying it. It’s D&D!
 

mamba

Legend
So, why not simply ACCEPT that people have a different opinion than you do and that the inclusion of some of these things makes the game less fun for them.
I was asking you where the line is in your opinion, I do accept that you have a different one

Now, since it hurts you in no way, shape or form to leave this stuff out - you can certainly add it back in when you run games
that cuts both ways, if you are offended by something, throw it out or change it
 

Hussar

Legend
I was asking you where the line is in your opinion, I do accept that you have a different one


that cuts both ways, if you are offended by something, throw it out or change it
What difference does it make where my line is? It does not matter in the slightest. And, again, it's not just about that person being offended. It's about avoiding situations where it might be a problem - my lunchroom scenario above where a 12 year old is perhaps being less sensitive than he could be graphically describing scenes where other people might misunderstand.

You are presuming a level of maturity of all gamers that I simply don't. And I'd prefer to just not have it in there, so I can add it to taste. Just like spices. Make the base and then add the spices. Don't force every other person out there to eat what you like and then complain when other people don't like it.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend, he/him
haven’t seen the text, but did they not simply get the order wrong and otherwise described the events accurately? In that case I am not sure what you consider too much detail


why would sensitivity readers care about which fictional people ‘shot first’

Guess we will never know for sure
I posted the text in whole upthread: it is clearly intentional. don't know why, but there is a why.
 

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