TorgoTheWhite
Adventurer
I hate what they did to my dear bannerette... They plan to do the gladiator dirty in the same way
D&D 5E (2024) Has anyone played the new 2024 Banneret?
- Thread starter ECMO3
- Start date
the current version is much improved over 2014's version
Horwath
Legend
it's a mechanical improvement if you ignore that it focuses needlessly on charisma.
Is there some new version? I can only find the playtest version from last year. And was there a gladiator in 5e base?
Ah sorry you mean the banneret.
Well they like having secondary stats for fighters, which I to some degree like, but one has to consider it being a disadvantage so the rest need to make up for it in power.
I like the idea that it leverages Charisma. I can't stand it when they give Fighters and Barbarians and such non-sensical Strength-based abilities.
Strength should be for bashing down doors and things like that. If I have a Knight subclass that is focused on leadership its powers should be Charisma focused.
Horwath
Legend
it does not need to be based on charisma, it needs to be based on class level.
Or it could just use proficiency as bonus. I do not mind the cha etc. but it needs to be treated as a big disadvantage, and the rest ouf the power budget accordingly changed.
Wizards which do focus on "bashing down enemies with a sword" dont need Str. Fighters are better fit to have a secondary stat, but its still a big disadvantage in the end, unless the stat is con or maybe wis.
But this is only from level 7, which in most tables is late. In yours its more fine, but even then, the fighter will need to give up his ideal use to get more party use out of it. And advantage is just not that hard to get (with weapon masteries)
Then play the Rune Night. Its a lot better support for the party and does not need you to make a screwed build.
The bannered is boring and not good. It gets better level 7 and 10, but also there for the level 10 ability you need to give up your perfect timing of action surge for your friends. If you have your turn before them then you cant use your burst but need to wait for turn 2 where its worse, because your allies are not yet next to enemies.
Honestly I still think overall a subclass less fighter which just goes for good stats and feats and pure fighter will be in most levels better. Yes there are some situations where different damage type might be better like against zombies, but planning for specific niche situations should not sacrifice the main levels and in some levels its EXTREME. Lets do the math for level 5.
Normal fighter, no subclass, 17 Str, 16 con, 14 wis, 10 dex. Great weapon fighting style, and on level 4 a feat which increases strength.
- On level 5 you deal in average: 2* (0.6*(8+4 )+ 0.05*(16+4))= 16.4 damage in average with an attack
- Your bannered deals 1 * (0.55*(7+3+3.5) + 0.05*(14+3+7)) =8.625 damage this is 52.6% of the damage of the normal subclass less fighter! So you are only half a character most of the time in combat
- But wait lets say the fighter takes great weapon fighting as a feat then the damage is: 2* (0.6*(8+4+3 )+ 0.05*(16+4+3))= 20.3 so your fighter deals only 42% of the damage of the fighter.
- Honestly this is a liability, if you have any hard fight at level 5 (which in modules again is common, especially with level 5 being from the Xp required one of the longest levels), you are worth less than half a normal fighter with no subclass! You being there in the group makes the life harder for everyone.
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They need Strength when they need to jump over a 10 foot pit (real example from a game today) and it was actually a Bard PC, not a Wizard that could not make it. My Rogue only made it because she rides on a Deer familiar (from Familiar Friend) that has an 11 Strength.
Seriously I get what you are saying though, and there is a power disparity in terms of build options, but I don't think that is a big deal.
Advantage on attacks is easy to get. Advantage on all D20 rolls is not easy to get. That is saves, skill checks, escape checks, everything. One person can get it from Forsight for 8 hours at the cost of a 9th level spell. I don't know of any other ability that gives you advantage on everything even for a single PC.
I see what you are saying though about level 7. I will be playing a 1-20 campaign and the subclass would be significantly less fun if it was say a 1-8 campaign where one of the best abilities does not come online and the other one is only for 2 levels. The 3rd level out of combat stuff is ok but not enough to carry the subclass if that was all you get.
I have played 2 Rune Knights. It was a while ago using the 2014 rules. They were great, maybe the most powerful fighters there were in 2014 (maybe still would be the most powerful). But it wasn't this kind of party support I don't think. Storm Rune does give advantage and it can be used on any roll, but it was often fussy figuring out when to use it and it was only 1 roll for 1 ally because it burned your reaction and you don't want to use it early on on just any roll because you might need the reaction for something else, then you don't use it on the Cleric's Wisdom save because .... well Cleric .... and then he rolls a natural 1. This burns a Bonus action and it is a lot more rolls it is affecting and it won't go wasted as often (assuming the party is in the emenation).
Nothing says it needs to be a melee attack. It will affect when you action surge no doubt.
So I disagree with this from experience in play at low level. Zombies and Swarms are not niche, they are very common low level enemies. I think the only 2 monsters more common than Zombies in tier 1 are Goblins and Skeletons and I don't think anything is more common than swarms.
Pretty much if I am playing levels 1-3 on most PCs I am looking for a way to deal Radiant for Zombies and Swarms and Bludgeoning for Skeletons because those fights are A LOT easier if you can do that. Shadows are not as common, I would call them niche but they are the other ones you see Radiant helping on a lot a low levels.
Once you get to level 4 or so this is not as big a deal.
I agree you will be substantially worse at level 5. I think you are better at most other levels though.
You did forget Hex, which admittedly is limited use and not going to make much of a difference at level 5, but Hex will make quite a difference at level 8+ when you can use it at least 5 times a day. Then you are also getting one extra action surge every day compared to a single class fighter and finally you have a much better ranged attack even if you can't find a magic Longbow and have to use a Heavy Crossbow with Truestrike. So yeah give up a little bit at level 5 and 11 and 12 but get it and more back other levels.
I also put a lot more value in diversity than I do in raw "best case" damage because a lot of times you are not swinging your ideal weapon every round of every fight and even moreso when the adventure does not afford the magic weapon you want. Fighter is a really great platform for that because of their out of combat skill check bonuses, their large number of weapon masteries and their ability to change Fighting Style feats every level. Like if I am starting level 1 with a Greataxe wielding GWF Fighter I like also having Trident mastery so I can ready an action to throw a Trident at the bad guy as he gets close in the hopes I can prone him and prevent him from even getting up without using an action to dash. It is also nice to have on hand if you end up fighting in water. I like to have a backup bludgeoning weapon (for Skeletons), usually a Warhammer or a pair of Light Hammers with Nick and I like having a long Range weapon, like a Crossbow or Longbow even if I am rolling with just a +1 or so on it. Then as I level up I can flow to whatever good magic weapons we find.
I get a lot of what you are saying, I am not convinced it will be as bad as you (or to be honest others) seem to think it will be. I would be more apt to believe that if someone who actually played it was saying that.
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Paul Farquhar
Legend
This is such a strange comment, the banneret has never not been terrible.
Horwath
Legend
it was made better in one thing and worse in other thing. but yeah, it was always a bad subclass.
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