Healing Surges, fatigue and cool (magic) effects

[Mort]

With healing surges, 4e seems to be able to simulate fatigue extremely well. A PC could be at full HPs but if he has little or no surges, he's certainly not up for a big fight, eg he's fatigued and needs to rest.

And yet, this seems to rarely be used for much as far as game mechanics. For example, the only class I can think of, off the top of my head, that uses the link is the planeshifter. This class can teleport to any known teleportation circle at any time (well once per encounter anyway) BUT must use three healing surges (or equivilant HPs if healing surges run out) to do so. Big effect for a big cost, exactly how I think magic should go. Are there any other classes that do something similar?

This seems like it would be perfect for other magic using classes (and maybe others) to simulate the fatigue that always comes in the fluff of using magic, but never seems to come across in the mechanics.

It could certainly be used to address the complaint that 4e magic is not, well, magicy enough. For example when throwing a fireball a wizard could use a healing surge to add 1 extra die of damage (cap the healing surges that can be used to supercharge the spell at 1/2 spell level or something like that to avoid abuse). Or for rituals (and the time complaint) a wizard could use 2 surges to cut the time by 10 or somesuch (knock for example takes 10 minutes, allow the wizard to do it in 1 min for 2 healing surges or even 1 round for 4 healing surges, again big effect, big cost). That certainly fits, for me, making magic feel different and powerful, but with an associated cost.

It just seems like a perfect, mechanic that should see more use (both in the core rules and alternative stuff).

Thoughts?

 

[aco175]

While I do not own it, I seem to think the Quintissensial Wizard from Mongoose? has a system with the old 3.5 feats like enpower, widen ,maximize and such. I think you burn axtra healing surges to be able to do more with your wizard spells.

I can also see some other ideas where this would be cool to express fatigue. A fighter holding the massive gate from shutting long enough for the party to excape. A cleric speaking with god, although there is some sort of ritual for this.

This kind of stuff adds to the heroics of each character, but may also add to those parties that rely on the one encounter /day rule or the 5-minute day thought. If my character could burn all his surges and create Awsome Fire Breath of God that clears the whole room- and my character needs to rest.

Without going on a tangent on the 5-minute day I like the idea of having a ritual or feats that allow you to do more with surges similar to the first example I brought up.

 

[Turtlejay]

Bringing up the 15 minute adventuring day is *exactly* the right response to this. At first blush, using surges to power extraordinary uses of magic is a great idea, but soon enough the Sorcerer is Empowering every single daily, and the party must stop to rest because he is exhausted, even though the rest of them are not.

It also would create an imbalance between Arcane and other power sources, which I think 4e has avoided quite well so far.

OTOH, I would like to see mechanics that referenced surges remaining. For example, using a physical skill might give a bonus or penalty for surges remaining (+1 to your endurance check for each remaining surge!). Not something to *always* use, but I agree, surges remaining could very well model fatigue.

I have occasionally roleplayed this. Last session my Fighter|Warlord was at full HP but had no surges left, and I tried to indicate when I could that he was exhausted. Nobody would accuse me of being the world's best roleplayer. *I* liked it though...

Jay

 

[ValhallaGH]

This kind of stuff adds to the heroics of each character, but may also add to those parties that rely on the one encounter /day rule or the 5-minute day thought. If my character could burn all his surges and create Awsome Fire Breath of God that clears the whole room- and my character needs to rest.

Although that whole "you can't benefit from an extended rest if you had one within the last 12 hours" can lead to some really interesting "Sorcerer needs Rest badly; Monsters are attacking" situations.
Whether or not it would be worthwhile is a serious consideration based upon what sort of pacing your DM uses, as well as the specifics of the situation.

Other than encouraging the one-encounter day due to amazing Nova potential, I don't see anything wrong with the concept. I too would like to see healing surges, remaining or being expended to activate something, play a larger role in the game mechanics.
I do think that adding extra damage to an attack would be boring. Something like the Planeshifter's ability to just do stuff by expending so many surges is cool, flavorful, and occasionally useful for advancing the plot / party goals. Expending so many surges to deal so much damage is dull (Paladin Daily 5 "Martyr's Retribution" is a prime example). Expending surges to do interesting stuff is interesting, and that's a good thing.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Just be careful how you use it:

If you make it once per day, you may use a healing surge...

OR

only daily spells can be empowered

But

i see no reasons why a fighter can´t use the same mechanics to empower his fighter powers.

I would like this mechanic as a feat. This would help reducing grind, also it would nicely help to use up surges in a 1 encounter per day scenario.

 

[Mort]

Bringing up the 15 minute adventuring day is *exactly* the right response to this. At first blush, using surges to power extraordinary uses of magic is a great idea, but soon enough the Sorcerer is Empowering every single daily, and the party must stop to rest because he is exhausted, even though the rest of them are not.

I certainly see where you're going and if the DM isn't careful it might be a problem, but it's already lessened in 4e. For one thing PCs are just not as mobile; teleporting out of a hostile area is much more hard to come by in 4e for example. But a DM mindful of pacing should be able to handle it (frankly just like a 3e DM can too).

It also would create an imbalance between Arcane and other power sources, which I think 4e has avoided quite well so far.

Only if you stop at magic effects, non-caster paragon classes could have some abilities keyed to healing surges too, for example. My point is, the mechanic is already in place, why not use it?

OTOH, I would like to see mechanics that referenced surges remaining. For example, using a physical skill might give a bonus or penalty for surges remaining (+1 to your endurance check for each remaining surge!). Not something to *always* use, but I agree, surges remaining could very well model fatigue.

I'm a little leary of this, surges remaining already model fatigue (the less you have the less you ability you have to continue and/or restore yourself) and I don't know about even a further level of complexity - might be interesting though.

I have occasionally roleplayed this. Last session my Fighter|Warlord was at full HP but had no surges left, and I tried to indicate when I could that he was exhausted. Nobody would accuse me of being the world's best roleplayer. *I* liked it though...

Jay

Quite true though. A fighter with no surges left is nowhere near full effectiveness. He is in effect on his last legs - full hit points or not.

 

[Turtlejay]

I think we agree, I was just highlighting a pitfall that such a system might have. Only allowing you to use 1 surge per daily will not seriously change the length of the day (even at high levels that is a max of 4 surges a day). I agree that just moar damage is kind of sad, but you'd have to carefully balance other effects with existing rules.

Adding a surge to a daily to:
- allow a reroll
- increase the size of the effect
- drop the sustain action one step (standard-->move-->minor-->free-->none)
- increase the range by a set amount (double? 50%)
- impose a penalty on the save
- add or remove a damage keyword

Those are not really balanced with each other, but are at least a little more interesting than just 3.5's Empower or Maximize.

As for using surges remaining, I didn't state it well, but it might just be something to plop into a lengthy Skill Challenge as a wrinkle. Set a goal for number of successes, but no limit on failures, and have the DC rise as you fail, but also cost a surge. This can lend a sense of desperation (a failure not only steals a surge but is a -1 to future checks!) and is fairly easy to just drop in. I don't think I'd consider this an 'always on' benefit, just something for a DM to surprise his players with as an alternate method to throw a wrinkle in things.

Jay